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A Discussion On Paying Hak5 Vs Diy Vs Support The Other Devs


telot
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Its is tough, because on one hand I want to support Hak5. Unfortunately, unless things have changed with the mark4, pineapple sales fund only hak5 - not seb or robin...Which is okay, as Darren is doing all the marketing and some of the programming and snubs is filling the orders. They certainly deserve a piece of the pie. So it works like this (please correct me if I'm wrong - I've just pieced this together from various posts) Robin created Karma/Jasager and still updates it. Seb creates and updates the firmware that runs on the embedded systems (fons, alfas). Darren codes some of the UI - making it all BBS'ish and whatnot. Darren markets it with ease being that he's the media mogul we all know and love ;) Really he's not just hacking the trust relationship between humans and computers, but also between his audience and himself. It obviously works well for him - longest running show on rev3 (swoot swoot!).

All that aside, he's kinda F'd himself in a way, because hak5 encourages DIY at most every turn - a nod to this being the fact they've always released the pineapple firmware for free (which, is it really Hak5's to give away? dunno) so you can buy your own hardware and DIY and save all the markup otherwise lining hak5's pockets. Unfortunately in the case of the mark4, the hardware is not currently available to the public, so we're a bit screwed this time around. I'm happy to purchase through hak5 at a markup, as I have the last two pineapples. Especially with something cutting edge like this - but I'd also like to be supporting the dev's who are really making it happen (not to discount Darren's contribution) i.e. Seb, Robin et al. Selfishly, by doing so I would feel more comfortable requesting features, expecting updates, etc - as is, they're doing it for free, so if we keep pestering them, maybe they'll just walk away. Which they could very well do and we'd all lose.

Donate button for the devs? A portion of proceeds from mark4 sales going to them or a charity of their choice? Just a thought that popped into my head when reading another thread about a guy who lives outside of the country paying mad tariffs/tax on items purchased in the US. He wants to support, but doesn't want to pay 50% on top of the price just because he lives outside the US.

Anyone down for a little thursday morning discussion on the economics of pineapples and the psychological dissonance of wanting to support yet wanting to satiate our DIY fix? :D

telot

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I am sure that seb, robin, Darren, etc, have discussed all this and are all on board with whatever arrangement they've made.

I enjoy DIY, and did a few of the MK3s that way, bit I still bought my MK3 at hakshop, and spent a lot.of bread on.other items as well at hakshop primarily to show my love and support for the show and all the great knowledge they bring to us in an entertaining and informative format.

That said, I would be more than happy to send seb and robin some money for their amazing efforts and undying loyalty to OSS and selflessly offering us all the great opportunity to be a.part of these incredible.projects.

Put up a link and I'm there.

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I am sure that seb, robin, Darren, etc, have discussed all this and are all on board with whatever arrangement they've made.

I enjoy DIY, and did a few of the MK3s that way, bit I still bought my MK3 at hakshop, and spent a lot.of bread on.other items as well at hakshop primarily to show my love and support for the show and all the great knowledge they bring to us in an entertaining and informative format.

That said, I would be more than happy to send seb and robin some money for their amazing efforts and undying loyalty to OSS and selflessly offering us all the great opportunity to be a.part of these incredible.projects.

Put up a link and I'm there.

I'm sure its been arranged as well - just interested in how it all works (hacker...you know).

Hehe hfam visits the forums on his android. I can.tell by.all.the periods :)

My pineapple didn't arrive today (curse me for choosing the cheap shipping!) but as soon as it does I'll dive right in and see if we can get ICS working for ya!

telot

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I'm sure its been arranged as well - just interested in how it all works (hacker...you know).

Hehe hfam visits the forums on his android. I can.tell by.all.the periods :)

My pineapple didn't arrive today (curse me for choosing the cheap shipping!) but as soon as it does I'll dive right in and see if we can get ICS working for ya!

telot

ahaha!! You know me too well! :) That damn space bar on the Kindle Fire is WAAAAAAY too small!!! :) :) :)

Thanks brother, hope your package arrives soon, I know how painful the wait can be!!

Looking forward to you weighing in on the "no WAN for pwnd clients" issue, thanks for all your participation out here, I just LOVE our community out here! :)

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This topic has come up before. By purchasing and supporting the hackshop you're making a direct contribution to the community. Maybe I'm just a giant noob, but I don't think you're going to find many communities like this one where everyone helps and helps each other in such an open manner on sensitive topics that are likely to get banned in other forums.

I've also never seen do it yourself discouraged. I haven't been keeping up with mk4 but the last pineapple I bought had all the packages available for free download off the site.

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Greetings all:

This very subject has also been on my mind. I am an ardent DIYer and have built two pineapples to date.

The hardware for the MK4 **is** available if you know where to look, and I don't want to undercut any of the hard work of the devs and the

hakshop by posting details. Yes I am going to build a MK4 from an OM2P (not the same HW as the MK4) when the fw becomes available but I will have to wait until that time.

Darren and the devs have put in a lot of work and should be compensated for their work, I agree.

But here's my dilemma: Buying at retail a fully plug and play unit has no interest to me. Part of the learning and fun is to DIY.

That being said, might I make a suggestion??

I would suggest, Darren that you offer "memberships" to this forum, the benefit to joining is to contribute to hosting, show costs, and hopefully a portion could go to the devs. And members would get access to download the latest firmware releases for the projects hosted on this forum.

I would gladly pay for such a membership, or just make a "donation".

That way the DIYers would still pay their fair share toward the costs of running this forum and the production of the (fun) show.

Just my 02.

Thanks Darren, Seb, Robin and anyone else I forgot to mention!

Edited by csystem
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Greetings all:

This very subject has also been on my mind. I am an ardent DIYer and have built two pineapples to date.

The hardware for the MK4 **is** available if you know where to look, and I don't want to undercut any of the hard work of the devs and the

hakshop by posting details. Yes I am going to build a MK4 from an OM2P (not the same HW as the MK4) when the fw becomes available but I will have to wait until that time.

Darren and the devs have put in a lot of work and should be compensated for their work, I agree.

But here's my dilemma: Buying at retail a fully plug and play unit has no interest to me. Part of the learning and fun is to DIY.

That being said, might I make a suggestion??

I would suggest, Darren that you offer "memberships" to this forum, the benefit to joining is to contribute to hosting, show costs, and hopefully a portion could go to the devs. And members would get access to download the latest firmware releases for the projects hosted on this forum.

I would gladly pay for such a membership, or just make a "donation".

That way the DIYers would still pay their fair share toward the costs of running this forum and the production of the (fun) show.

Just my 02.

Thanks Darren, Seb, Robin and anyone else I forgot to mention!

I agree with this... now that I've built a mk3 on my own..... I can't wait to the firmware for the mk4 is out...... I learned a few ssh commands, and a few other things.... Their are things from the hackshop I would buy... such as a rubber ducky, ubertooth..... Now... there's many ways to support hak5 that i think some people do not realize........ not just by monetary support..... if we didn't "watch" the show, visit the website, forums... revision3 wouldn't still sponsoring them....( note: they're the longest show to be with revision3 atm )...

Not to count hak5 income, but i look at it like this..

alfa router:$25 maybe less, as i'm sure they pay wholesale price

ethernet cable:$5

flashing firmware:$25 (about the same price to flash an xbox360 or fix rrod)

Shipping & Recieving:$25 (processing orders, and shipping timely)

^ that's just how i look at it.... which i'm pretty sure it could be wrong....

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I disagree with memberships being paid, or a paid membership having download privileges.

The hakshop works because there's a premium and profit generated by providing the.projects, and the markup is on the gear itself, not the code.

I support the community in a number of ways:

- I buy products from hakshop (a LOT of stuff)

- I also build products from the OSS provided out here and purchasing hardware elsewhere

- I use the products and provide feedback to devs and assistance to others

- I watch the show religiously, as well as other Rev3 shows

- I frequent the forums and interact with others to.create and be a part of the incredible community we are so lucky to have.

Charging a premium to access downloads of OSS-based firmware does some negative things:

- it goes against the OSS spirit

- it creates a situation where people are shut out unless they pay for the downloaded

- it will get shared regardless, creating a situation where code will be distributed outside the.forums and/or current distribution methods

These devs are doing this because they love what.they.do. they love the.community, and love the spirit of OSS.

Personally, I do both DIY, and support hakshop. I do not want to pay to download code/firmware, but I have no.problem donating money.to devs. There is a distinct difference, and I believe the.current situation is optimal for everyone, including the community.in general.

Paying for forum access jusy to download firmware, when we already have many.means to.support will have a significant chilling effect on the community,.the incredible projects theh.bring to us all, and these forums.

Edited by hfam
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I disagree with memberships being paid, or a paid membership having download privileges.

The hakshop works because there's a premium and profit generated by providing the.projects, and the markup is on the gear itself, not the code.

I support the community in a number of ways:

- I buy products from hakshop (a LOT of stuff)

- I also build products from the OSS provided out here and purchasing hardware elsewhere

- I use the products and provide feedback to devs and assistance to others

- I watch the show religiously, as well as other Rev3 shows

- I frequent the forums and interact with others to.create and be a part of the incredible community we are so lucky to have.

Charging a premium to access downloads of OSS-based firmware does some negative things:

- it goes against the OSS spirit

- it creates a situation where people are shut out unless they pay for the downloaded

- it will get shared regardless, creating a situation where code will be distributed outside the.forums and/or current distribution methods

These devs are doing this because they love what.they.do. they love the.community, and love the spirit of OSS.

Personally, I do both DIY, and support hakshop. I do not want to pay to download code/firmware, but I have no.problem donating money.to devs. There is a distinct difference, and I believe the.current situation is optimal for everyone, including the community.in general.

Paying for forum access jusy to download firmware, when we already have many.means to.support will have a significant chilling effect on the community,.the incredible projects theh.bring to us all, and these forums.

Forgot to explain in my post when i agreed with csystem.... as far as paying just browse, post, and stuff on the forum now.. but what i'm talking about is like "hey, premium account" where as... you cant change colors of your, get a " I supported HAK5" tag, something along those lines.. not just a flat out, " hey you wanna join hak5 community you have to pay... i've been on forums with systems like this........ where as anyone can join and post for for....... but to change you username color, or have the " I support hak5" tag... would be a fee.....that wouldnt be a bad idea... it'll be the user choice to donate if they want...

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I disagree with memberships being paid, or a paid membership having download privileges.

OK, will you allow me a rebuttal?

I agree, OSS should always be free. However seems obvious to me the new firmware Mk4 release is being delayed, at least to non-paying customers (who do not buy the retail package which is released presently). Understandably, the hard facts are the forum servers and Darren and company have significant expense in their operation. However a purely pay for download would indeed be chilling and I do not support that.

So if a membership program were in effect it would allow access to the latest project code, which would still be made available freely later to everyone, but those who desire to contribute would get access first. You could still join the forum for free. Maybe a donor avatar like someone suggested. If the software gets passed around, well, thats how OSS should be. I am trying to suggest a way for the DIYers here to contribute something toward the expenses here.

Or maybe a way to just donate would be fine.

Thanks!

Edited by csystem
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OK, will you allow me a rebuttal?

I agree, OSS should always be free. However seems obvious to me the new firmware Mk4 release is being delayed, at least to non-paying customers (who do not buy the retail package which is released presently). Understandably, the hard facts are the forum servers and Darren and company have significant expense in their operation. However a purely pay for download would indeed be chilling and I do not support that.

So if a membership program were in effect it would allow access to the latest project code, which would still be made available freely later to everyone, but those who desire to contribute would get access first. You could still join the forum for free. Maybe a donor avatar like someone suggested. If the software gets passed around, well, thats how OSS should be. I am trying to suggest a way for the DIYers here to contribute something toward the expenses here.

Or maybe a way to just donate would be fine.

Thanks!

Sure, brother, we're all friends out here! ;)

The issue then becomes, what about guys like me who are happy to support hakshop and buy the products knowing they help out with expenses, and I also love DIY and do that too? I get socked twice...or I have to make a choice; buy from hakshop, or pay to DIY.

I think that describes a lot of us actually...we buy happily because the.product is great and know it supports the other functions of Hak5, and we DIY because at the end of the day were hackers who love to DIY.

I understand your point, when its looked at from a purely DIY perspective though, I just think it will penalize a large group of us who already do both buy and DIY. For instance, I bought 2 MK4s from the hakshop. I also have 2 Alfa AP121s.

I believe the way.they're doing it now.is to create incentive to support hakshop now and get the great firmware and product now, or you can wait for a bit as a DIY untkl sufficient units are.sold to.meet their financial.goals, then release it to the community at large. I'm ok with that, understand why they would do that.

I like the model as it is, I suspect that most do too. I think that the incentive approach is a good model, and as I stated above, and you echoed in your response, if Seb and digininja were to put up a donation link, many of us would happily click it and donate to show our appreciation.

Anyhow, that's my re-rebuttal, and about all Ill say on the subject other than to say thanks again to Hak5, Darren, Seb, digininja, and everyone else for sharing their brilliant projects with us, and for making this community such a great place. Very glad to have found such a gold mine of great folks and feel a bit privileged to be a tiny part of it.

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Okay guys, let me just step in here.

Let me clear a few things up:

-Robin, Darren and myself have all worked on the MK4. Together. As a team.

-The MK4 Firmware will be released to the public as we all support and love homebrew. Just give it a bit of time.

-Updates will be released like there was with the MK3 (just this time they are bigger and better), just that they will be a lot easier to do!

Now, about "paying the devs", speaking for myself at least, I do this for the community and because I love it.

I also think that if we had some sort of donation button it would go against the community as it currently works. It is something to consider though.

What I can say is that all of us are on board because we want to.

We have a lot of things still in the works, one of which as Darren hinted at on some other post will greatly involve community work.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Best Regards,

Sebkinne

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Okay guys, let me just step in here.

Let me clear a few things up:

-Robin, Darren and myself have all worked on the MK4. Together. As a team.

-The MK4 Firmware will be released to the public as we all support and love homebrew. Just give it a bit of time.

-Updates will be released like there was with the MK3 (just this time they are bigger and better), just that they will be a lot easier to do!

Now, about "paying the devs", speaking for myself at least, I do this for the community and because I love it.

I also think that if we had some sort of donation button it would go against the community as it currently works. It is something to consider though.

What I can say is that all of us are on board because we want to.

We have a lot of things still in the works, one of which as Darren hinted at on some other post will greatly involve community work.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Best Regards,

Sebkinne

You cant shake my love for you, seb. :lol: ;) :P

I know you guys are in it because ya love it.

Put up a link sometime and Ill buy ya a few drinks. ;)

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Now, about "paying the devs", speaking for myself at least, I do this for the community and because I love it.

I also think that if we had some sort of donation button it would go against the community as it currently works. It is something to consider though.

What I can say is that all of us are on board because we want to.

We have a lot of things still in the works, one of which as Darren hinted at on some other post will greatly involve community work.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Best Regards,

Sebkinne

A big toast for you seb. that's makes us different from the government and the companies that prefer using expensive license...

i salute you all the hak5 dev team.

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Its is tough, because on one hand I want to support Hak5. Unfortunately, unless things have changed with the mark4, pineapple sales fund only hak5 - not seb or robin...Which is okay, as Darren is doing all the marketing and some of the programming and snubs is filling the orders. They certainly deserve a piece of the pie. So it works like this (please correct me if I'm wrong - I've just pieced this together from various posts) Robin created Karma/Jasager and still updates it. Seb creates and updates the firmware that runs on the embedded systems (fons, alfas). Darren codes some of the UI - making it all BBS'ish and whatnot. Darren markets it with ease being that he's the media mogul we all know and love ;) Really he's not just hacking the trust relationship between humans and computers, but also between his audience and himself. It obviously works well for him - longest running show on rev3 (swoot swoot!).

I appreciate the concern and welcome a transparent discussion on pineapple economics, though you should understand first off that the sales do not only fund Hak5. As far as the roles are concerned Telot is on the right track. Robin patches the drivers bringing Karma to life, improving it greatly with every build. Seb packages the firmware, works on features & updates. Since rewriting the UI for the MK3 I've been figuring out manufacturing, dreaming up, discussing and implementing new features, writing documentation, marketing and soon to be holding workshops, doing presentations. Snubs fills orders, handles exchanges when someone bricks one, brings the HakShop to cons. Paul makes us all look good on camera. Mubix & Mr-Protocol provide valuable testing, feedback & community support. Finally Kerby doesn't see what the fuss is about - thinks it should be the WiFi Tuna fish.

All that aside, he's kinda F'd himself in a way, because hak5 encourages DIY at most every turn - a nod to this being the fact they've always released the pineapple firmware for free (which, is it really Hak5's to give away? dunno) so you can buy your own hardware and DIY and save all the markup otherwise lining hak5's pockets. Unfortunately in the case of the mark4, the hardware is not currently available to the public, so we're a bit screwed this time around. I'm happy to purchase through hak5 at a markup, as I have the last two pineapples. Especially with something cutting edge like this - but I'd also like to be supporting the dev's who are really making it happen (not to discount Darren's contribution) i.e. Seb, Robin et al. Selfishly, by doing so I would feel more comfortable requesting features, expecting updates, etc - as is, they're doing it for free, so if we keep pestering them, maybe they'll just walk away. Which they could very well do and we'd all lose.

Hak5 always has and always will embrace DIY. Since the first fon based MK1 to where we are now, the project has remained open source and we encourage DIY. In fact, the MK4 lends itself to being the most modable pentesting dropbox or wifi attack platform ever conceived. I can't wait to share with you some of the awesomely inconspicuous enclosures I've been working on for the SXSW panel. As for the hardware, it is starting to make its way into other distributors. The product is so new and Hak5 is the first to market and first to integrate it as a product because we've been working directly with Alfa on the board for the last 10 months. You can bet your bottom dollar though the firmware, soon to be released with the next round of feature updates, will run on one of these regardless of who you buy it from. Same with the Fon's MK1, the Open-Mesh's MK2 and the Alfa's MK3. You can rest assured knowing that feature requests will always be welcomed, DIY will always be supported and updates will continue to come as Robin, Seb & I put even more polish on this project. None of us are doing this for free and you're not pestering us asking for X, Y or Z.

Not that I do not completely apprecieate seb and robin's support with OSS, but it's still OSS. What Darren and the hak5 team are selling is not the software but the hardware, the sticker, and the preconfigured pineapple, which is really all that you are buying when you buy a mk4. So I believe that it is Hak5's profit to make.

This has been the case since the beginning of the project. What we're selling is our hard work, and giving it away for free to boot. I can at least say for myself I've spend hundreds of hours developing this and have a huge sense of pride for the project. I'm sure Robin & Seb do as well -- it's really come a long way and its all of our profit to share.

This topic has come up before. By purchasing and supporting the hackshop you're making a direct contribution to the community. Maybe I'm just a giant noob, but I don't think you're going to find many communities like this one where everyone helps and helps each other in such an open manner on sensitive topics that are likely to get banned in other forums.

I've also never seen do it yourself discouraged. I haven't been keeping up with mk4 but the last pineapple I bought had all the packages available for free download off the site.

When we first developed the Jasager / Pineapple with Robin back in '08 the project wasn't for sale. It wasn't until a year later with the community knocking down our door for a off-the-shelf unit that we finally started building 'em bespoke - at 160 bucks mind you o.O. We said on the sales page, here's the firmware, go buy this, solder this, flash that, or we'll do it for you and you'll be funding future hacking developments from us. This has held true to this day (except it's nearly half the price now). We probably wouldn't have the MK4 at this price, based on this awesome new hardware, if it wasn't for the support we got from the community with the previous iterations. So thank you for getting us where we are today. This is truly the best community around.

But here's my dilemma: Buying at retail a fully plug and play unit has no interest to me. Part of the learning and fun is to DIY.

That being said, might I make a suggestion??

I would suggest, Darren that you offer "memberships" to this forum, the benefit to joining is to contribute to hosting, show costs, and hopefully a portion could go to the devs. And members would get access to download the latest firmware releases for the projects hosted on this forum.

I absolutely 100% agree that part of the learning fun is DIY. I can't even begin to tell you how much I've learned developing it. Seriously, I didn't know a bootloader from busybox years ago. We'll actually have DIY kits in the HakShop as part of the third phase of deployment. Right now we're in the first where there's small quantities and we're primarily focused on serving the forum community. Trust me, this thing has so much modding potential and I think you'll agree when we really get the ball rolling that it's not DIY vs HakShop -- they'll go hand in hand.

As for forums, they'll always be free and the pineapple will continue fund future hardware developments, the devs & the show.

I disagree with memberships being paid, or a paid membership having download privileges.

+1 on all your comments. Free love.

I agree' date=' OSS should always be free. However seems obvious to me the new firmware Mk4 release is being delayed, at least to non-paying customers (who do not buy the retail package which is released presently). Understandably, the hard facts are the forum servers and Darren and company have significant expense in their operation. However a purely pay for download would indeed be chilling and I do not support that.

[/quote']

The firmware will be released very shortly. I just wanted to give the early adopters a chance to be the first kids on the block with the new code. Would be kinda sad if you paid 90 bucks after refreshing the hakshop for weeks only to read on the forums the next day about how much fun some other guy is having with his mk4, meanwhile yours is still in the mail. The code has been in development for months, I figure what's another few days for a good customer experience? Also, Seb & I are working on the technicalities of firmware update rollouts and wanna make sure we have it right. Something like wifipineapple.com/mk4/latest.tar.gz, ya know? Hooray for version control. o.O

I really hope that clears things up. In short: As always buying from the HakShop supports future projects, the devs, Hak5, this community. We wouldn't have a MK4 if nobody bought the previous models. DIY is and always will be supported. Hell we've even un-bricked units people bought from other vendors! DIY kits will eventually make their way into the HakShop for those who want to build their own, learn about bootloaders, serial baud rates, batteries, etc. We're all super proud of the project because it's the best value in portable pentesting and looking at the horizon the possibilities are limitless. The forums & firmware will always be free and your continued support however that may be - watching the show, posting on the forums, shopping with us or chilling in chat - are enormously appreciated, you have no idea. Really, it's truly an honor to be a part of this and it wouldn't exist without ya. We love you all.

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Hey guys...can we get a big group hug going?

I was nervous at first posting this topic, because I knew I'd be hitting a couple different nerves and also striking a couple chords. I'm so glad we were able to discuss it openly and honestly and I certainly appreciate the reasoning behind not compromising the integrity of the markIV first round for us early adopters (got mine in the mail today! swoot!). Thank you Darren for opening up and letting us peek behind the scenes - transparency is what OSS is all about, and what this community is all about, and its a beautiful thing. You guys fostering this kind of dialogue speaks volumes to us avid forum users and the hak5 community. You built it, we came, and together we can keep making it better and better through sheer willpower of our shared hacker mindsets. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds our community together.

telot

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I had "awe yea" face on until I got to your last two sentences. Then I bust out laughing. Cheers!

Original Obi Wan all the way!

telot

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I'm more of a reader on forums then poster but i have to say thanks to,

to the whole dew team and Darren being so open =3

Gladly payed for the IV and even getting it into EU to support

and hope for EVEN more impressive stuff to appear on the

Hakshop =3

(can't wait till it arrives x3)

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Having seen the other pen test tools out there and being a Mark2 owner, I am shocked at the price you are asking for the Mark4! I got mine as a gift but your price point is way more than fair to the consumers. More than the $, the force of will behind the project makes it exciting and fun to be a part of.

I hope the dev team can continue to have fun and enjoy the project for a long time.

(Thought you guys would like to see this; http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/03/pwnie/?intcid=story_ribbon )

Edited by xtronic
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I just want to add props to all of the community that has made this pineapple what it is today. Crowdsourcing, testing, refining and brainstorming for new ideas has been well proven here in these forums. I've been following the project for quite a while (way before I ever joined the forums) and am impressed with the functionality that just seems to keep growing. I had a question regarding compensation as well a while back and am glad someone brought it up. I totally understand doing things for the love of something and am guilty myself of not putting enough value on my effort and time occasionally. With that being said I was more than happy to pay the meager price for an updated and more capable WiFi pentest tool knowing that it would help further development. I've sourced my own hardware in the past but I think this time I wasn't capable of waiting. :) Cheers All!

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