Linux Love

[Debianrulz]

I have been waiting for desktop Linux to "arrive" since 1999. In 2001 I tried desperately to live on it but it wasn't quite ready yet so I bought an iBook with OSX because it was a desktop 'nix that was usable. In late 2006 I installed Debian 4 on my desktop and never looked back, in the summer of 2008 I sold my iBook and bought a Toshiba satellite L305. I really, really tried to like Vista. The Toshiba has 3 gigs of ram and a 2 ghz dual core so Vistas requirements were more than met but explorer (shell not browser) crashed routinely and the cdrom drive liked to disappear and the sound liked to stop working from time to time. After a few system restores I gave up on Vista and tried to install Debian 4 but it was too old to support the hardware on the new laptop. I had to ive with Ubuntu 8.04 until Debian 5 was installable which was around august, I think. Once I got Debian 5 installed I had to live without power management until I got up the nerve to install kernel 27. Now everything works better than ever and I am happy. If I were an Ubuntu user I would have been happy in June with Ubuntu 8.04 but I wanted Debian so I had to wait a bit longer. I do everything on my systems that I did in windows, I game (a lot) multimedia works perfectly, I have a great office package that I depend on and use regularly, I surf the web, watch DVD's and listen to music. I stream internet radio and enjoy multimedia of all kinds. I was able to do all of this on my desktop since late 2006 and I did not ever have to write a single line of code or edit configuration files (with the exception of sources.list) anymore than a windows user has to edit the registry or their startup programs in msconfig unless I wanted to.

So the truth is I don't need windows, no one does, and all of the "extra work" I did with Linux was my own doing, not the systems. In fact I suffer less in Linux and spend less time tweaking and nursing my system than I did with Windows or Mac OSX. The truth is Linux is ready, and the big scary monster, Debian Linux, is ready. Are you?

[h3%5kr3w]

hmm... I admire your interest in linux but this is definiely not a solve-all, cure-all for windows and mac users, nor will it be for at least another two to five years. Don't flame me. First just read on.

Linux is a great and stable OS. It has shown where it can compete in some areas with mac os and windows x, and many times have exceeded in some things but not all things.

The major problem for the majority of the audience is the fact of drivers and the willingness to take on things like xorg.conf and ./configure, /make, and /make install, installing dependencies, etc.

There is ALOT of hardware out there, and software of various sorts that just wont work well, or at all on linux, and the fact is, until developers see how good of a system linux can be and how popular it already is, then many are stuck in the cold, and it's not neccesarily their faults, because many may say "well why don't you just write your own driver", or "just create a script it's as easy as" but many people have no idea how to write code, and the few that do, just dont want to.

An example: For upwards of a year I have ran Ubuntu on my desktop, and it works great, but everytime I try to watch hak5, or something else (youtube anyone?) with flash, it shudders/laggs/crashes/etc. Not fun. I have updated, downgraded, used ndiswrapper, etc. It simply will not work with my machine (amd 64 proc, nvidia video card). Also I LOVE to play demanding games that I do not want to give up on, but even though wine has come a long way, it is still WAY too early to properly use it with newer games. And I, like many others are just not going to pay for a compatibility layer.

A second example: My laptop runs darned near any (reallly really recent) linux distro you can throw at it, and it shines with it, but unfortunately, I have the same flash problems as my desktop with it, AND to top it all off, I have an Ath5k wifi card in it. Because noone has properly supported the drivers yet in the kernel, it just doesnt work. Same thing with my lappy as my desktop but with the wifi drivers. I have tried madwifi, and the ath5k drivers, the stock drivers that are "supposed to work" in Intrepid Ibex, and it just doesnt work. The closest I got to getting it to work, it was in fact working, but would not scan for networks, and I need this ability. Furthermore even if it did scan, *which it did once or twice* the driver doesnt support any encryption past wpa-psk. I run wpa2 no matter what, so no go on that... Also I have an Nvidia 8200m g in the laptop which until VERY recently would not work with linux, to even see a live desktop (no the vesa modes would not work) I had to manually download, and install the newest drivers from nvidia from the shell. Not fun at all. And also if your running on a mac these days doesnt seem like adobe cares too much about you these days either since many on mac is having the same problems with flash.

My final thing about it is this. Linux is great, and IF your hardware supports it, and the software works properly, AND it fits your gaming taste, then it's a no brainer. Dont look back. Want to run a server? PERFECT! Linux works better than most os's for this.. but the thing is for a desktop replacement os for Windows or Apple OS, alot of people are stuck without like me, and until those bugs are fixed it's just too annoying, and I am not enough shell and C++ inclined to do anything about it, now with that said though, I do have Linux Mint, and Intrepid Ibex running in VMware viewers and virtual box, just to play around with, and I'm not hating on your comment, actually I commend you on your linux embracing, but your ending text "The truth is Linux is ready, and the big scary monster, Debian Linux, is ready. Are you?" is a well start on a flame war. Just saying.

[vector]

hmm... I admire your interest in linux but this is definiely not a solve-all, cure-all for windows and mac users, nor will it be for at least another two to five years. Don't flame me. First just read on.

Linux is a great and stable OS. It has shown where it can compete in some areas with mac os and windows x, and many times have exceeded in some things but not all things.

The major problem for the majority of the audience is the fact of drivers and the willingness to take on things like xorg.conf and ./configure, /make, and /make install, installing dependencies, etc.

There is ALOT of hardware out there, and software of various sorts that just wont work well, or at all on linux, and the fact is, until developers see how good of a system linux can be and how popular it already is, then many are stuck in the cold, and it's not neccesarily their faults, because many may say "well why don't you just write your own driver", or "just create a script it's as easy as" but many people have no idea how to write code, and the few that do, just dont want to.

An example: For upwards of a year I have ran Ubuntu on my desktop, and it works great, but everytime I try to watch hak5, or something else (youtube anyone?) with flash, it shudders/laggs/crashes/etc. Not fun. I have updated, downgraded, used ndiswrapper, etc. It simply will not work with my machine (amd 64 proc, nvidia video card). Also I LOVE to play demanding games that I do not want to give up on, but even though wine has come a long way, it is still WAY too early to properly use it with newer games. And I, like many others are just not going to pay for a compatibility layer.

A second example: My laptop runs darned near any (reallly really recent) linux distro you can throw at it, and it shines with it, but unfortunately, I have the same flash problems as my desktop with it, AND to top it all off, I have an Ath5k wifi card in it. Because noone has properly supported the drivers yet in the kernel, it just doesnt work. Same thing with my lappy as my desktop but with the wifi drivers. I have tried madwifi, and the ath5k drivers, the stock drivers that are "supposed to work" in Intrepid Ibex, and it just doesnt work. The closest I got to getting it to work, it was in fact working, but would not scan for networks, and I need this ability. Furthermore even if it did scan, *which it did once or twice* the driver doesnt support any encryption past wpa-psk. I run wpa2 no matter what, so no go on that... Also I have an Nvidia 8200m g in the laptop which until VERY recently would not work with linux, to even see a live desktop (no the vesa modes would not work) I had to manually download, and install the newest drivers from nvidia from the shell. Not fun at all. And also if your running on a mac these days doesnt seem like adobe cares too much about you these days either since many on mac is having the same problems with flash.

My final thing about it is this. Linux is great, and IF your hardware supports it, and the software works properly, AND it fits your gaming taste, then it's a no brainer. Dont look back. Want to run a server? PERFECT! Linux works better than most os's for this.. but the thing is for a desktop replacement os for Windows or Apple OS, alot of people are stuck without like me, and until those bugs are fixed it's just too annoying, and I am not enough shell and C++ inclined to do anything about it, now with that said though, I do have Linux Mint, and Intrepid Ibex running in VMware viewers and virtual box, just to play around with, and I'm not hating on your comment, actually I commend you on your linux embracing, but your ending text "The truth is Linux is ready, and the big scary monster, Debian Linux, is ready. Are you?" is a well start on a flame war. Just saying.

Finally someone actually GETS IT.

[h3%5kr3w]

Finally someone actually GETS IT.

thank you there vector. I have been a 'light' linux enthusiast since 2000, and it really has came a LOOOOOONNNNGGG way, and if all the hardware and software were supporting it, and it was'nt so aggrivating to use shell, you could bet your a$$ I would be using it right now as opposed to vista and winxp, but either until all major hardware developers contribute to the kernel WHEN they come out with hardware, and/or software developers start creating all software for both or all three os's then it will NOT be the top dog.

My prediction for this (as always) is this: Microsoft has and may well continue today and the future to pay developers to ONLY develop for their os, and until multiple developers do two things: quit taking pay from microsoft, and/or just make a leap of faith with a big-time highly anticipated product, Microsoft will continue to be the big dog. Once this does happen (if ever) then you will see Linux really get into the big times.

This actually has happened before and is the reason why Linux is as popular as it is today. My biggest example of this is DOOM 3. It was a really big product. The anticipation for the product was through the roof. It did not come out with linux along side the windows release, but was really close to it, so in turn the media went wild about it, linux enthusiasts went wild about it, and people really woke up to linux.

Alot of people do not believe it, but media makes the world go round, and for alot of people it is the 'In your face' media that really does make an impact in their life. People who do not know anything about linux just does not root around on distrowatch.com, or linuxnews.com. They read magazines, play around on the net, buy stuff, and occasionally, say WTF is a .gzip? is that what I should select or an exe? when downloading freeware. When big products like Doom 3 come out on linux, they read it in their favorite magazine, they notice it in the web reviews, etc. Like it or not there is a big wall out there in the world between windows users, and linux. It's like the workhorse child that obeys every command but is not seen in public. If we want linux to float and ultimately strive to or near the top of the heap, we need to take this child out into public, show people what it can do. Inform people of how it *could* be of great use to them and explain the strong points to them. Until we/they/the linux community really go out and do that, it is just a child that is not seen in public.

[Debianrulz]

hmm... I admire your interest in linux but this is definiely not a solve-all, cure-all for windows and mac users, nor will it be for at least another two to five years. Don't flame me. First just read on.

Linux is a great and stable OS. It has shown where it can compete in some areas with mac os and windows x, and many times have exceeded in some things but not all things.

The major problem for the majority of the audience is the fact of drivers and the willingness to take on things like xorg.conf and ./configure, /make, and /make install, installing dependencies, etc.

There is ALOT of hardware out there, and software of various sorts that just wont work well, or at all on linux, and the fact is, until developers see how good of a system linux can be and how popular it already is, then many are stuck in the cold, and it's not neccesarily their faults, because many may say "well why don't you just write your own driver", or "just create a script it's as easy as" but many people have no idea how to write code, and the few that do, just dont want to.

An example: For upwards of a year I have ran Ubuntu on my desktop, and it works great, but everytime I try to watch hak5, or something else (youtube anyone?) with flash, it shudders/laggs/crashes/etc. Not fun. I have updated, downgraded, used ndiswrapper, etc. It simply will not work with my machine (amd 64 proc, nvidia video card). Also I LOVE to play demanding games that I do not want to give up on, but even though wine has come a long way, it is still WAY too early to properly use it with newer games. And I, like many others are just not going to pay for a compatibility layer.

A second example: My laptop runs darned near any (reallly really recent) linux distro you can throw at it, and it shines with it, but unfortunately, I have the same flash problems as my desktop with it, AND to top it all off, I have an Ath5k wifi card in it. Because noone has properly supported the drivers yet in the kernel, it just doesnt work. Same thing with my lappy as my desktop but with the wifi drivers. I have tried madwifi, and the ath5k drivers, the stock drivers that are "supposed to work" in Intrepid Ibex, and it just doesnt work. The closest I got to getting it to work, it was in fact working, but would not scan for networks, and I need this ability. Furthermore even if it did scan, *which it did once or twice* the driver doesnt support any encryption past wpa-psk. I run wpa2 no matter what, so no go on that... Also I have an Nvidia 8200m g in the laptop which until VERY recently would not work with linux, to even see a live desktop (no the vesa modes would not work) I had to manually download, and install the newest drivers from nvidia from the shell. Not fun at all. And also if your running on a mac these days doesnt seem like adobe cares too much about you these days either since many on mac is having the same problems with flash.

My final thing about it is this. Linux is great, and IF your hardware supports it, and the software works properly, AND it fits your gaming taste, then it's a no brainer. Dont look back. Want to run a server? PERFECT! Linux works better than most os's for this.. but the thing is for a desktop replacement os for Windows or Apple OS, alot of people are stuck without like me, and until those bugs are fixed it's just too annoying, and I am not enough shell and C++ inclined to do anything about it, now with that said though, I do have Linux Mint, and Intrepid Ibex running in VMware viewers and virtual box, just to play around with, and I'm not hating on your comment, actually I commend you on your linux embracing, but your ending text "The truth is Linux is ready, and the big scary monster, Debian Linux, is ready. Are you?" is a well start on a flame war. Just saying.

Software and driver issues are not Linux problems, they are developer problems. Linux lacks support from hardware and software manufacturers not the other way around. Linux is ready, they are not. And what you are saying about the shell and programming is misguided. You can use Linux, full time, and do no more programming or command line work than you do in Vista or Leopard. And flash works perfectly too as does Java and all other technologies I have tried to use on the web. I have heard the complaints about web browsing before regarding Flash and Java in Linux and Mac OS I am not sure what the root cause is because I have never experienced those issues in any OS. And, no, Linux is no more of a cure-all than Windows or Mac OS, but it is a viable alternative. And if I get flamed it is not my choice to do so, it is the flamers choice.

[Debianrulz]

thank you there vector. I have been a 'light' linux enthusiast since 2000, and it really has came a LOOOOOONNNNGGG way, and if all the hardware and software were supporting it, and it was'nt so aggrivating to use shell, you could bet your a$$ I would be using it right now as opposed to vista and winxp, but either until all major hardware developers contribute to the kernel WHEN they come out with hardware, and/or software developers start creating all software for both or all three os's then it will NOT be the top dog.

My prediction for this (as always) is this: Microsoft has and may well continue today and the future to pay developers to ONLY develop for their os, and until multiple developers do two things: quit taking pay from microsoft, and/or just make a leap of faith with a big-time highly anticipated product, Microsoft will continue to be the big dog. Once this does happen (if ever) then you will see Linux really get into the big times.

This actually has happened before and is the reason why Linux is as popular as it is today. My biggest example of this is DOOM 3. It was a really big product. The anticipation for the product was through the roof. It did not come out with linux along side the windows release, but was really close to it, so in turn the media went wild about it, linux enthusiasts went wild about it, and people really woke up to linux.

Alot of people do not believe it, but media makes the world go round, and for alot of people it is the 'In your face' media that really does make an impact in their life. People who do not know anything about linux just does not root around on distrowatch.com, or linuxnews.com. They read magazines, play around on the net, buy stuff, and occasionally, say WTF is a .gzip? is that what I should select or an exe? when downloading freeware. When big products like Doom 3 come out on linux, they read it in their favorite magazine, they notice it in the web reviews, etc. Like it or not there is a big wall out there in the world between windows users, and linux. It's like the workhorse child that obeys every command but is not seen in public. If we want linux to float and ultimately strive to or near the top of the heap, we need to take this child out into public, show people what it can do. Inform people of how it *could* be of great use to them and explain the strong points to them. Until we/they/the linux community really go out and do that, it is just a child that is not seen in public.

Most computer users say "wtf is an exe?" Or, my personal favorite, "where is the any key?" They are light years from worrying about gunzip. And you're right about media to a degree, and that is a great point but it isn't just media, it's the development community as a whole.

[Debianrulz]

There is another HUGE point that I don't ever see covered in these forums and flame wars and that is that Linux is truly one OS to rule them all. YOu can install, literally, the same OS on every machine in your enterprise from laptops and simple data entry (OOo) boxes to engineering, accounting, and the servers. One disc, literally, one flavor, is all you need. As opposed to Windows or Mac OSX. Vista has four (4) desktop editions and there is a whole family of server editions. Mac OSX has 2 with the desktop and server editions. Frankly, so does Ubuntu for reasons that elude me. But with tru GNU Linux, like Debian (the basis of Ubuntu) there is one version for all needs. Thre is no differentiation between a desktop, laptop and a server OS other than the software installed.

Homogeny, continuity, and consistency. That is true low cost ease of use for an enterprise or the home.

[nullArray]

I think that's because there are many tools that are useless to the average user and may potentially damage their system if they didn't know what they were doing.

Also, specializing streamlines things and guarantees you'll only get what you need for the particular task at hand.

Except Vista..., fail there. Home, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate, and 64 bit versions for each (right).

[vector]

There is another HUGE point that I don't ever see covered in these forums and flame wars and that is that Linux is truly one OS to rule them all. YOu can install, literally, the same OS on every machine in your enterprise from laptops and simple data entry (OOo) boxes to engineering, accounting, and the servers. One disc, literally, one flavor, is all you need. As opposed to Windows or Mac OSX. Vista has four (4) desktop editions and there is a whole family of server editions. Mac OSX has 2 with the desktop and server editions. Frankly, so does Ubuntu for reasons that elude me. But with tru GNU Linux, like Debian (the basis of Ubuntu) there is one version for all needs. Thre is no differentiation between a desktop, laptop and a server OS other than the software installed.

Homogeny, continuity, and consistency. That is true low cost ease of use for an enterprise or the home.

seriously who worries about the cost of windows? any new computer you buy comes with windows pre-installed, and you get a nice little re-installation disk just in case. I've never paid for any windows version. everyone talks about "ZOMG THE COST OF VISTA HOLY SHIT I'M NOT PAYING THAT" but when was the last time you or anyone you know had to pay for windows. Now I'm sure someone is going to say "well its factored into the price of your new computer blah blah blah you still have to pay for it" but really when someone looks at the price of a new computer they are looking at the specs:price ratio not which os comes installed. if you look at a computer and you say to yourself "damn thats a good fucking price" then you got a good deal. I mean do people really think that 3-400 dollars of a new computer price is for vista ultimate?

[Debianrulz]

I think that's because there are many tools that are useless to the average user and may potentially damage their system if they didn't know what they were doing.

Also, specializing streamlines things and guarantees you'll only get what you need for the particular task at hand.

Except Vista..., fail there. Home, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate, and 64 bit versions for each (right).

Obviously you aren't a very good computer science student since you have never actually installed Linux. You see young Jedi, when you install Linux (install, not copy from a live CD) you are given options about what software you want with the system. Those choices, in the case of Debian (my distro of choice and therefore the one I am most familiar with), include several server packages, laptop or desktop. For my laptop I chose laptop, for my desktop I chose desktop, no servers no "tools that might actually harm the computer" (whatever that means). For a web server I would choose web server, for a domain controller I would choose samba server, etc. But these tools are not installed unless you choose them.

[ssmithisme]

Linux would be the most powerfull kernel if the developers started working with it. Imagine big games like crysis running on a linux machine. It would be amazing.

For me a many other people running linux is so easy. I found my switch from windows to linux to be a very great experience. It was more fun i didnt have to maintain much because nothing ever went wrong.

If the developers started working with linux it could very well be head to head with windows in a few years.

[Debianrulz]

seriously who worries about the cost of windows? any new computer you buy comes with windows pre-installed, and you get a nice little re-installation disk just in case. I've never paid for any windows version. everyone talks about "ZOMG THE COST OF VISTA HOLY SHIT I'M NOT PAYING THAT" but when was the last time you or anyone you know had to pay for windows. Now I'm sure someone is going to say "well its factored into the price of your new computer blah blah blah you still have to pay for it" but really when someone looks at the price of a new computer they are looking at the specs:price ratio not which os comes installed. if you look at a computer and you say to yourself "damn thats a good fucking price" then you got a good deal. I mean do people really think that 3-400 dollars of a new computer price is for vista ultimate?

Who is everyone and where did I mention about money? Where does this idea that linux advocates are cheap come from. $0.00 is not the only kind of free and cost has forms other than money.

[Debianrulz]

Linux would be the most powerfull kernel if the developers started working with it. Imagine big games like crysis running on a linux machine. It would be amazing.

For me a many other people running linux is so easy. I found my switch from windows to linux to be a very great experience. It was more fun i didnt have to maintain much because nothing ever went wrong.

If the developers started working with linux it could very well be head to head with windows in a few years.

Developers are the key. The community is doing its part as the kernel is the largest and most rapid development project ever. What we need is outside development support from vendors. Further, I would argue that Linux has already surpassed windows and mac os on the desktop in its feature set and eye candy at least. I have yet to see a windows or mac desktop that can begin to hold a candle to beryl or compiz. And yeah, you're right, it is easier to use if only for the fact that you can just install and use it and it won't break. Can't make that claim against apple so easily though. I ran an iBook for 8 years and the only system related problem I ever had was a bad hard drive. So OSX is worry free too but it is expensive $$$ to buy a mac and then lay down $129.00 at least every 2 years because you can't get software anymore. Unless of course you are a thief who does upgrade your OS without paying for it, which is a whole other argument for FOSS. You get free (in many ways) software that you didn't steal.

[Debianrulz]

...quote]

[vector]

Developers are the key. The community is doing its part as the kernel is the largest and most rapid development project ever. What we need is outside development support from vendors. Further, I would argue that Linux has already surpassed windows and mac os on the desktop in its feature set and eye candy at least. I have yet to see a windows or mac desktop that can begin to hold a candle to beryl or compiz. And yeah, you're right, it is easier to use if only for the fact that you can just install and use it and it won't break. Can't make that claim against apple so easily though. I ran an iBook for 8 years and the only system related problem I ever had was a bad hard drive. So OSX is worry free too but it is expensive $$ to buy a mac and then lay down $129.00 at least every 2 years because you can't get software anymore. Unless of course you are a thief who does upgrade your OS without paying for it, which is a whole other argument for FOSS. You get free (in many ways) software that you didn't steal.

the end of your post that i quoted you said this "That is true low cost ease of use for an enterprise or the home." And I'm not impressed with compiz or beryl. I can do anything compiz can do and more on both my windows XP and Vista boxen. your're free to challenge me to duplicate anything compiz can do. And I'll post screen shots.

[Debianrulz]

You're right, the only meaning cost can possibly have is monetary. And no, I'm not challenging you to do anything, if you are happy with windows then by all means use Windows.

[nullArray]

Obviously you aren't a very good computer science student since you have never actually installed Linux. You see young Jedi, when you install Linux (install, not copy from a live CD) you are given options about what software you want with the system. Those choices, in the case of Debian (my distro of choice and therefore the one I am most familiar with), include several server packages, laptop or desktop. For my laptop I chose laptop, for my desktop I chose desktop, no servers no "tools that might actually harm the computer" (whatever that means). For a web server I would choose web server, for a domain controller I would choose samba server, etc. But these tools are not installed unless you choose them.

Are you trying to start a flame war with me?

I'll try not to demean myself, but I'll at least say this: Computer Science student != rabid Linux fanboy

This was repeated in my Discrete class continuously, "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -Edsger Dijkstra. My professor was also an electrical engineer, and her example was, "Just because I'm an electrical engineer, that doesn't mean I can fix your microwave if it breaks." Computer science is about computation, math, data structures, processes, algorithms and the like; or it is at least for me.

So there was no reason for you to be rude like that.

I will say that there is a reason a "server" and "desktop" versions exist commercially and in my opinion it comes down to OS choice. You like your Debian, great, the fact that they put everything on one disc is neat. Linux users are more likely to understand the difference between desktop, laptop and server, etc and all the choices aren't overwhelming.

However, Windows/Mac users are not likely to understand that difference and having a consumer and pro version (server grade) of the software is therefore beneficial. I think you'd be surprised at how many of my professors have trouble understanding how to log into their email using Windows. I'm trying to put this in context with Linux being ready. Since Ubuntu seems to be the most user friendly Linux, it makes perfect sense that they follow this model

Now, please, don't flame me back, k?

[nullArray]

Obviously you aren't a very good computer science student since you have never actually installed Linux. You see young Jedi, when you install Linux (install, not copy from a live CD) you are given options about what software you want with the system. Those choices, in the case of Debian (my distro of choice and therefore the one I am most familiar with), include several server packages, laptop or desktop. For my laptop I chose laptop, for my desktop I chose desktop, no servers no "tools that might actually harm the computer" (whatever that means). For a web server I would choose web server, for a domain controller I would choose samba server, etc. But these tools are not installed unless you choose them.

Are you trying to start a flame war with me?

I'll try not to demean myself, but I'll at least say this: Computer Science student != rabid Linux fanboy

This was repeated in my Discrete class continuously, "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -Edsger Dijkstra. My professor was also an electrical engineer, and her example was, "Just because I'm an electrical engineer, that doesn't mean I can fix your microwave if it breaks." Computer science is about computation, math, data structures, processes, algorithms and the like; or it is at least for me.

So there was no reason for you to be rude like that.

I will say that there is a reason a "server" and "desktop" versions exist commercially and in my opinion it comes down to OS choice. You like your Debian, great, the fact that they put everything on one disc is neat. Linux users are more likely to understand the difference between desktop, laptop and server, etc and all the choices aren't overwhelming.

However, Windows/Mac users are not likely to understand that difference and having a consumer and pro version (server grade) of the software is therefore beneficial. I think you'd be surprised at how many of my professors have trouble understanding how to log into their email using Windows, let alone know how to reinstall it when they break their computers. Since Ubuntu seems to be the most user friendly Linux, it makes perfect sense that they follow this model

Now, please, don't flame me back, k?

[snakey]

linux fixed all my windows problems :)

[Debianrulz]

Are you trying to start a flame war with me?

I'll try not to demean myself, but I'll at least say this: Computer Science student != rabid Linux fanboy

This was repeated in my Discrete class continuously, "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -Edsger Dijkstra. My professor was also an electrical engineer, and her example was, "Just because I'm an electrical engineer, that doesn't mean I can fix your microwave if it breaks." Computer science is about computation, math, data structures, processes, algorithms and the like; or it is at least for me.

So there was no reason for you to be rude like that.

I will say that there is a reason a "server" and "desktop" versions exist commercially and in my opinion it comes down to OS choice. You like your Debian, great, the fact that they put everything on one disc is neat. Linux users are more likely to understand the difference between desktop, laptop and server, etc and all the choices aren't overwhelming.

However, Windows/Mac users are not likely to understand that difference and having a consumer and pro version (server grade) of the software is therefore beneficial. I think you'd be surprised at how many of my professors have trouble understanding how to log into their email using Windows, let alone know how to reinstall it when they break their computers. Since Ubuntu seems to be the most user friendly Linux, it makes perfect sense that they follow this model

Now, please, don't flame me back, k?

I apologize for flaming you before. I tend to be abrasive with people about everything so I'm not picking on you, it's my fault not yous.

That's true, most users, including CS professors, and professors in general, are 12:00 flashers, believe me, I know, but just because most users are dipshits doesn't make it ok to be a dipshit, and no I'm not calling you a dipshit, I'm just saying don't defend them. Also, please don't assume that Linux users are any more enlightened than Windows or Mac users, the majority of us are dipshits too. Just like with Windows and Mac users, not all Linux users are created equally. And it is not true at all that a Linux user might better understand the difference between a desktop and a laptop and as far as I'm concerned, if you don't know whether your computer is a desktop or a laptop you have no business using anything more complex than an Etch-A-Sketch and you need a drool cup. Ubuntu, I think even more than Mac OS X is made for dipshits and I think the trend in the spin off community as a whole is a bad one. I don't think that taking a working, easy to use system like Debian and stripping out all configuration options is not user friendly, in fact I think it is the opposite. I mean, doesn't anyone realize that if we continue to cater to the lowest common denominator then the denominator will only become more common and lower. No, I don't think a wide open system like Slackware is the right answer either but users should be faced with some choices and configuration options and they should not have to shell out more money for those options. Oh, and don't think that Microsoft provides multiple versions of windows for the sake of their users, they do it for revenue streams. If a consumer goes to the market and finds the computer with all of the features they want but it comes with Vista home premium and they need some feature in Vista business or ultimate, like remote desktop, they have no choice but to buy Vista business or ultimate. If a Linux user decides they need a feature, like remote desktop, they go to the package manager and install it. Of course, that is assuming that a user has any idea what features they will want or need, which most don't.

[Debianrulz]

linux fixed all my windows problems :)

Really? How did you get all of your family and friends off of Windows? I still get bothered constantly about fixing computers. It's good money though, one friend gave me $100.00 to run his restore CD.

[dr0p]

The only downside I have found with any distrobution of linux that I've tried is that WINE still sucks. Bad. That takes away basically any gaming you could possibly want to do, which makes me sad T_T

[RogueHart]

contrary to your(and many others) belief, there ARE a lot of people who depend on windows for their job. be it because their workplace doesnt allow them to install their own OS, they work at microsoft, or maybe they just have to use a program that either isnt compatible or you have to jump through too many hoops to get it working under linux

example.

i need windows for gaming, photoshop, google sketchup, and other windows based programs.

now i could probably get all of that working under linux but very little of it would run as smoothly. i got google sketchup working but i sacrificed some of the looks of my linux system and since i didnt need to do that(having a computer that is less powerful but still capable of using the program smoothly) i decided to uninstall it from linux and throw it on my old xp laptop.

i personally prefer linux over windows for anything i can but i have nothing against windows. i love linux because in 9 out of 10 situations i can find a free alternative on linux to any pay windows application.

[3vmike]

You know recently I've had a lot of conversations about this issue with several people and I'm going to post something here that I think everyone needs to hear.

Free=Choice

YOU can choose, linux or Mac OS or windows.

You can choose, linux that uses some closed source software(Ubuntu) or a complete open source system(Dynebolic)

You can choose, to pay for your OS or to steal it or to use free software

You can choose, to flame or not to flame

Everyday, we are faced with a deluge of choices and which OS to run is only one. Of course for some of us that decision is under constant review.

I personally run Vista on my Desktop, Mac OSX on my brand new macbook that my job purchased for me(with 128gb SSD :-) and Linux Mint on my personal laptop.

The greatest thing Richard Stallman and Linus Turvalds did, was allow the community to make a choice.

I'm not a coder, I'm a System's Admin and this is my Manifesto. You may flame me, but you can't flame us all.

[h3%5kr3w]

good call 3vmike!

Wow this thread has got out of hand...

This isnt even about the red pill or the blue pill anymore, hell there's even a greed pill now! lols~

good to see such a strong linux force around here, oh and yah, i remember when all the different options when installing a distro, it was kinda a pain in the ass. I like having it all where it just installs minimal and I install what I want. I think that's the problem with ubuntu right now, it's a do-all cure-all but it's getting to the point where it's bloatware... that sucks man. gimme something that works ya kno!?