Microsoft supporting open source????

[HALEN666]

Hey guys, it has been a while since the last time I posted in this forums, but anyway. I wanna ask you something that makes me wonder about microsoft and his move to start helping the open source community. I read an article about microsoft supporting open source projects (some of them of course) at least for now. However, I wonder, What are they really trying to do here???.

The only reason I switched from windows to kubuntu and fedora is because I know microsoft helps federal agencies such as fbi and nsa to spy on people. All those security problems that microsoft has, are just excuses for them to have open doors in peoples' computers. Don't get me wrong here, I do not do anything illegal, at least that I know.

Do you think, microsoft's move is to have certain control on open source software, so they can keep helping federal agencies to spy on people, or at least on linux users too??? If the NSA really has backdoors in windows, I am sure they might have some in MACs. Linux seems to be the only choice for people that want to have privacy nowadays. However, I don't think they will let linux users have that privilege.

I read an article that said NSA could have included backdoors in selinux, in order to be able to spy on linux users (at least on the ones that use selinux). I know you will say that selinux is open source, but then let me ask you this. Who are the ones checking all those thousands or millions lines of code?? it is you? or is it somebody called bob, that gets paid for telling you that everything is OK in the code. Just because you know c++, python, etc or even assembly does not mean you can really understand all that code. The people that do, well, then can get paid for not looking at certain places in the code. They want you to find the exploits in the everything, so you can;t knock them down in the future. Security researches are just helping them to have the perfect operating systems, so they and only they can have access to your computer, but you can;t have access to theirs.

Look I am just wonder about our future. They have control in our computers, they have gps systems in our cars, they have cameras everywhere, they have all your information including the financial one, they even want to implant small chips in people, so they can be safe from kidnapping and other stuff, they get help fromthe biggest search engine in the world to see what you are looking for on the net and have kind of a psychological picture of you, they get help from social networking sites such as facebook and myspace to know more about you and what you do on the net, why do you think they want you to use your email address as a user name ion those sites? so they can have a picture of you and know whose email addresses belong to who. Everything they do, they do it in the name of safety and for your one good, but don;t you think that is the perfect excuse to shut your mouth up against what they do. I don't bother letting them see my dog pictures that I have in my computer, or see me driving or where I go to. As long as they give me the power to spy on them too. Just imagine what a crazy guy could do with all that power.

SOrry guys for bringing this up. I feel better now that I said all that, amd I am sure you might feel the same way.

links:

http://news.techworld.com/operating-system...or-open-source/

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...oor_windows.htm

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/sk...pe-backdoor.asp

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007...ps_micro_1.html

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensour...mobile.php?p=37

[dr0p]

First, wow you are paranoid. I mean, I am unsettled at the amount of information that the government can have on me any time they want simply because I always have my phone on me, etc., but you're taking this to a whole new level. First, there's a few things wrong with your theory about backdoors on every build of Windows since 95; in order for the computers to be remotely accessed there would need to be an open port waiting for a connection, but there isn't and if you think it's a reverse-connection then surely somebody would have noticed the rogue packets and exposed them. And in my opinion, Microsoft has been playing nice with the open source community lately because it creates good publicity for them.

Only my opinion, but meh.

[HALEN666]

, haha i know right, sorry I could not help it.

You don't have to have an open port in order to have a backdoor in your system. I know the word backdoor might sound like I talked about open ports in your system but not really. Any vulnerability in windows can give them a backdoor to your system. Even a simple macro in a doc document. It is easy for hackers to hack windows, but it is even easier for microsoft to hack you cause they have full control in windows; likewise, do you think you could be able to detect a rootkit created by them? you can barely detect the most popular ones with some good tools such as icesword. About open ports, you can hide open ports with a simple rootkit. NOw imagine how powerful would be a rootkit created by them. are they gonna tell you about it, nope. if it is difficult to find backdoors in open source software, it is even more difficult to find it in windows cause you don;t have the source; unless, you get it from the chinese goverment lol.

Anyway, my point with this is that it is just getting worse. first microsoft, then skype, cisco, google and some others that we might not even know about, are working for them. As one guy in the radio said the other day, I guess we all are gonna live in houses made of glass some day. By, the way, don;t take me wrong about all this. This is not about microsoft itself, but about the fact that we might not have privacy in the future, which is good in a way, but it is bad as well cause I wonder if I can spy on the president and see what porn sites he visits hahah

[Wetwork]

There has been some theories that there are certain ports that the govt can access w/o them being opened on a router because the router companies (such as Cisco/linksys) have been in bed with the govt for years just as Ma Bell was back in the day. IMHO Micro$oft is playing nice with open source because they are scared that with the popularity of open source in the recent years its going to cut into there market share of being the #1 operating system for desktop systems and ruin all the hard work they have put in creating the grand monopoly that they have.

This trend has already started with most global corporations moving on to some form of open source server applications because proprietary micro$oft solutions were too buggy and too expensive to use for long term or were not tailorable enough to make said corporations happy. This trend transfered over to the home user with the advent of Ubuntu and its ease of use and a very nice desktop GUI that i am sure that someone somewhere in the NSA they have a port into that as well when you wget your applications.

With Obama now having the power to turn of the net in times of global crisis and also having the power to terminate individual users from the net at the flick of the switch if you download too much "stuff" it makes one wonder what monster we have created with this thing called the "net"

Example: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/0908...rc=netflash-rss

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/0805...rc=netflash-rss

here are 2 examples in recent news that has M$ scared shitless that there market share is going down the tubes so its only logical that they are going to make nice, nice with open source foundations to preserve what they have.

Understand that living in the Information Technology era there is no such thing as privacy any more. You want privacy....Drop your cell down a hole, never use a computer for anything any more, go live in the outback where your closest neighbor is 200 mi away and/or live in a cave & destroy your ATM and credit cards and live off the barter system.

It just amazes me that everyone is so concerned about privacy and annominity but yet disclose there entire lives on Facebook and twitter constantly.

Its a fact of life peeps time to accept that the 21st century is here and your life is an open book for anyone to read

its just a "get used to it and accept

[dr0p]

@HALEN666: Rootkit or not, other boxes on the network would still see the rogue packets ;p And as far as Windows having 0days as backdoors: no. A system-level 0day is worth tens of thousands (if not more) of dollars and when discovered (they all get found eventually) Microsoft has no choice but to patch them, thus making 0days in their own systems an incredibly inefficient and unrealiable method of backdooring.

@Wetwork: Again, even if the router / switch companies were controlled by the government, when I put my computer inbetween it and the internet that runs only open source code that I've reviewed, the rogue packets would be exposed.

Anyways, privacy no longer really exists (this is the sad truth that our new age of telecommuncations has brought us). The fact that our world has come to terms with this fact is what really saddens me; personally I want riots in the streets until proper privacy is restored but we all know that won't happen because the new technologies have made our lives so easy that we complacently accept whatever laws our governments bestow upon us. Yayyy for false democracy. (Again, everything written here is simply my opinion... except for the backdoor stuff, it simply can't work.)

[H@L0_F00]

When I want privacy, I sit in the bathroom.

[VaKo]

Microsoft aren't creating back doors, and neither are they worried about there market share going down the pipes. From the consumer point of view, Linux is still a very poor OS and will remain that way for some time on the desktop. Its only on devices like MID's or phones that Linux actually stands any chance of being a competitor hence the success of the Android platform compared to the decade plus of "the year of Linux" I've personally witnessed. What you fail to realize is that the desktop PC (including laptops to a certain extent) is a dieing platform, in 10-20 years, no one but geeks will have personal computers, it will all be MID's, phones and consoles.

[Burncycle]

Y'all are crazy...

[HALEN666]

Yeah I guess you right about accepting what is going on, but accepting it and not being able to do anything is what pisses me off. You right no people do anything cause we all got lazy to make the government listen to us. My Gov teacher shared that point with us too; however, where is all this going?

Like the other guy said, I do believe people isnot gonna be using desktops in the future anymore, the iphone is a good example for us to see that you don't a desktop computer or even a laptop to enjoy life on the net; however the gov knows that too and I am sure they will not let the iphone or other devicesgive us the privacy that we want. I don;t even have a facebook profile cause I do know what you mean.

About the guy that said something about rogue packets. Come on man, even federal agencies have a real hard time to find out who is hacking their systems, what makes you think you could see whether microsoft is hacking your system or not. microsoft might be crafting packets everytime you access the internet and you might not even know it. We are talking about professionals that have a higher computer and programming education and skills that we all together. Than you know stuff about security does not means you know it all, they have better chances to fool us cause they know more about this stuff whether i like it or not, and they have windows source to make any changes they want.

Oh by the way, you might be right about microsoft being afraid of open source and because of that they are helping them. however, don;t you think thats making everything even worse for them. I bet my grandma would switch to linux, if he heard on tv that linux is free and better than windows. In a way, microsoft is increasing linux popularity and making people aware it exist. None in my family knew that linux was, much less it was free and better than windows. I am sure there are thousands or even millions that don't even know linux exist (usually people that do not know much about computers), which I think microsoft likes to keep it that way. This discussion is not about what operating system is better, but about all those "weird" changes and stuff that are going on out there.

I like reading your replies cause at least I can see what other people think about all this, on the streets people seem to void the subject. Thanks guys

[ssmithisme]

Anyways, privacy no longer really exists (this is the sad truth that our new age of telecommuncations has brought us). The fact that our world has come to terms with this fact is what really saddens me; personally I want riots in the streets until proper privacy is restored but we all know that won't happen because the new technologies have made our lives so easy that we complacently accept whatever laws our governments bestow upon us. Yayyy for false democracy. (Again, everything written here is simply my opinion... except for the backdoor stuff, it simply can't work.)

Im up for the riots.

Im paranoid.

And, their gonna get you man.

lol

[5ive]

voodoo magic backdoors ftw

[dr0p]

About the guy that said something about rogue packets. Come on man, even federal agencies have a real hard time to find out who is hacking their systems, what makes you think you could see whether microsoft is hacking your system or not. microsoft might be crafting packets everytime you access the internet and you might not even know it. We are talking about professionals that have a higher computer and programming education and skills that we all together. Than you know stuff about security does not means you know it all, they have better chances to fool us cause they know more about this stuff whether i like it or not, and they have windows source to make any changes they want.

*sigh* YOU CAN'T HIDE PACKETS FROM BOXES THAT AREN'T COMPROMISED. Sorry, but I do believe that the caps was necessary since you won't listen to simple logic. Federal agencies (much like anyone who gets hacked) will have a hard time finding out who did it because of proxies, VPNs, etc. but if you know anything about your system and network it won't be hard to discover that it has been compromised.

Im up for the riots.

Im paranoid.

And, their gonna get you man.

lol

I am also up for riots but tbh 2 people won't be able to do anything :/

[h3%5kr3w]

im up for a riot :P

*btw, did you know if you turn your toaster knob to 10 and use it, that the government has secret microphones built in that send the signal through the power lines directly into their 'command center'! Cause if you like burnt toast your a terrorist...

***shhh! dont tell anyone!***

[555]

I have heard about a backdoor in windows for many years since i forget what version. I am 99% sure there is one that government and MS and whoever can goto whenever they want. I think them supporting open source is a good idea.

[CraigHB]

I think Microsoft is probably more concerned with falling sales of personal computers than Linux overtaking any share in the desktop market. As mentioned above, other devices are replacing the desktop. I think that's probably a good thing. As much as MS has tried to make it not so, personal computers are just too complicated and unreliable for the average person to deal with. I can't tell you how many times my relatives have had to shell out money to have someone work on their PC, it's just not worth the trouble for them. Comparing a personal computer to any other consumer appliance, it's really a horrible product when it comes to cost of ownership in time and expense.

[HALEN666]

"if you know anything about your system and network" thats the problem. Dude, the guy whose nickname is the"nasa hacker" got access to nasa's system for more than A YEAR, did they really know their system? hell no. I do knot you have to compromise a system in order to hide packets, that is my point. How can you make sure, windows don;t have rootkits for your window system, out of the box?? It is like the Chinese routers report a while back. There was an article saying that the U.S. was blaming China for installing backdoors in routers that they exported to the U.S. M$ don;t have to compromise your system after you get it, cause they can do it even after start selling their software, thats the problem with close source stuff.

About the riots, nahh. As my Gov teacher said, we are too lazy to do stuff like that, and the gov knows it. It was windows 95 when the nsa starting having backdoors and decode keys for windows. I know spying is something normal among people. We all have used keyloggers, trojans and stuff, but what pisses me off is that they do it with our taxes and violate our rights. I would not be surprised if they decide to set up a firewall like the one in China.

Haahaha about the toaster, yeah dude i knew that. That is what some electro domestic companies use to spy on us lol. they use fire alarm devices to see you naked in the bathroom. lol

[dr0p]

"if you know anything about your system and network" thats the problem. Dude, the guy whose nickname is the"nasa hacker" got access to nasa's system for more than A YEAR, did they really know their system? hell no. I do knot you have to compromise a system in order to hide packets, that is my point. How can you make sure, windows don;t have rootkits for your window system, out of the box?? It is like the Chinese routers report a while back. There was an article saying that the U.S. was blaming China for installing backdoors in routers that they exported to the U.S. M$ don;t have to compromise your system after you get it, cause they can do it even after start selling their software, thats the problem with close source stuff.

Ya see there, that red box? It can see ALL of the packets to and from the Windows box. You can't hide packets. And the fuck are you talking about you don't have to compromise a system to hide the packets? Of course you do or else you could see them with wireshark or any other utility like it.

And as far as Gary McKinnon goes, yes, he hacked NASA, and guess what, he got caught. The only reason he didn't get caught sooner was because of some particularily dumb employees at NASA who obviously didn't know their systems. Also, it was back in 2001 and earlier when system-level bugs were quite common; today, system level bugs are quite rare.

[555]

drOp, has anyone told you that your intelligence is super sexy?

[ssmithisme]

im up for a riot :P

*btw, did you know if you turn your toaster knob to 10 and use it, that the government has secret microphones built in that send the signal through the power lines directly into their 'command center'! Cause if you like burnt toast your a terrorist...

***shhh! dont tell anyone!***

No Way!!!!11oneeleven

0.0

lol

[h3%5kr3w]

they use fire alarm devices to see you naked in the bathroom. lol

YAY!!! so im not alone in the bathroom.. do my nuts look too big? :P j/k

drOp, has anyone told you that your intelligence is super sexy?

well.. i'll have to admit it is..... but @ the same time... no...

[IceBerg]

First of all... If the government wants to spy on you they wont ask microsoft for help. Microsoft souce code goes through some inhouse testing before it goes even to MSDN members for testing. With thousands of people working on one project it's very possible a disgruntle employee could try to slip something in but other employees get bonuses for reporting these things and with extensive versioning logs it's easy to track down who injected the code. This policy makes it very unlikely that anyone intentionally puts in back doors.

Reasons why it's not practical for the GOV to have microsoft do it are simple, if they get caught there is no deny-ability. It would be to easy for them to get caught with all the people out there running routers and firewalls packed with IDS such as snort. It would be much more logical for them to break into your place when none is around and install some inline hardware so they can monitor your screen and keyboard from a nearby location over a wireless connection. Though they have been known to do this, it's unlikely unless you are a high profile subject. They are 'supposed' to get warrants for this shit, but G.W. Bush said it was ok if they didnt and our elected officials decided that was ok because it might help fight terrorism.

As far as cellphones go, I wish my OKI still worked, but alas AMPS is gone forever. The way phones work is they receive GPS spacial pings and calculate their location. This then has to be transmuted so you MUST be connected to a cell tower. Under most circumstances this is only transmitted when you call 911 and that can be disabled on many phones. If you are paranoid then geet an HTC and roll your own radio rom. You can find more help with that at xda-developers.

Best practices for staying anonymous

1. always use free wifi with a random MAC for your adapter

2. never stay connected for more than 20 minuets

3. never log into any personal accounts

4. use onion routing where possible (TOR)

5. never use the same location twice

6. do not devlope patterns or habbits that can be tracked.

7. only boot from a flash drive and keep a container of acid handy to disolve the flash drive in if needed

8. never leave fingerprints digital or physical

9. avoid doing things to draw attention to yourself

10. use your brain

[HALEN666]

Save your pics for yourself dude, I think you didn't get my point. IN order to get your system compromise (in this case your windows box) somebody would have to install some piece of software in it such as a rootkit, BUUUUUUUTTTT (HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS) MICROSOFT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO THAT CAUSE THEY HAVE FULL CONTROL OF THAT LITTLE CD WITH WHICH YOU INSTALLED WINDOWS IN BOX, SO THEY CAN INSTALL AND HAVE AS MANY ROOTKITS AS THEY WANT CAUSE THEY MIGHT BE ALREADY BE IN YOUR SYSTEM AS SOON AS IT IS DONE INSTALLING. come on dude, the chinese hackers do it with crack windows images, so of course microsoft can do it too. I do know you can see packtes going out of your box if you have another box sniffing packets going out, my question is (DO YOU FREAKING DO IT) (DO ALL THE MILLIONS OF WINDOWS USERS DO IT????) hell no and microsoft knows. Likewise, even if you sniff traffic from another machine, how would you know if those "updates" that you are getting from microsoft are really updates and not something else. Jesus dude, this is not so difficult to understand, they have infinite get your system. You must really love Gate's balls to defend him even when you know I have a point.

About the nasa hacker """""OF COURSE IT WAS AN IDIOT THAT DIDN'T KNOW HIS SYSTEM, AND THATS MY POINT GENIOUS, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE JUST LIKE THAT IDIOT THAT WORK FOR POWERFUL AGENCIES LIKE NASA AND BECAUSE OF THEM, THEY GET HACKED. I THOUGHT YOU SAID PEOPLE IN THOSE AGENCIES KNOW THEIR SYSTEMS WELL!!!!!! AND BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO TRUST IN COMPANIES SUCH AS MICROSOFT AND THEIR "WONDERFUL" PRODUCTS GET HACKED TOO.

[5ive]

Anyone know what people do when they don't really understand what it is they are saying in a debate? They start yelling... everytime... ROCK ON HALEN666!!

XP has been out for what 8 years now? Do you honestly believe that a secret rootkit could go this long without being discovered? Take another bong rip bro...

[VaKo]

Surely a rootkit needs to talk to home to be any use, I mean I could smuggle a midget into someones house, but if the midget can't report back to me the intel he recovers is useless. Windows is used by pretty much every goverment on the planet, can you imagine the Indian or Chinese goverment not making a scene if they found out Windows was leaking data to the CIA?

[I Lol'd]

http://codeplex.org

http://codeplex.com