Zimmer Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Do you want US Healthcare reform in the US... or where you live, if you don't have... Do you Like it OR Hate it Me? I hate it (I don't really think that is a suprise) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Im quite surprised that a lot of Americans are against universal health care. Its the only western nation NOT to have it. I live in the UK and yes the NHS (national health service) is not perfect but overall its really good at making sure people are generally healthy. Say I required a medication for an illness that cost almost £1000 (about $1,670) a pack and if you need about 12 packs for a year that is a lot and I and a lot of people could not afford it. But luckily the NHS would help me and anyone else who needs help. I'm sure many Americans are in that very same situation but do not have a service to help like every country (except America) in the western world has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimmer Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Have you heard of insurance... you know from the private sector... they would have covered it (unless you bought el cheopo insurance and then it is your fault) :) Also the NHS payed for it... right... wait NO! taxes did... so really your mom you dad and every other tax payer payed for it Now to lighten the mood SMILEFACES!! :) :) :) :) :) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimmer Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 grr edit is screwing up or something I ment to edit grr SMILES :) :) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKo Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I've never really understood the American system, it does seem to be overly complex and profit driven though I've never used it first hand. I don't really understand the problem with universal systems we have in europe, if your goverment can run a military, build roads, and run schools etc, then why is running health care a problem? Plus, from what I can tell if you want to keep your insurance, you can do (we can also do this in Europe) but if you can't afford it (like a large amount of people) then society will cover you. I think what is more scary about the arguement is the complete insanity of the anti-universal coverage people, they have no idea what socialism is, or facism. They scare me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Have you heard of insurance... you know from the private sector... they would have covered it (unless you bought el cheopo insurance and then it is your fault) :) Buying insurances is not always an option, expetially in this current recession where costs are going up and overall incomes are going down. Sometime the "el cheapo" insurance the the best some can get. Also the NHS payed for it... right... wait NO! taxes did... so really your mom you dad and every other tax payer payed for it I will pay for insurance, we have whats called National Insurance that when your out of full time education you begin paying into just like normal insurance you might have in the US but its much more affordable. And yes, other tax payers do pay for any treatment I need but if they were in my situation, id be paying for them. In America I think the attitude is "Why should I pay for someone else" which was summed up in that response whereas elsewhere in the western nations the thinking is "making sure the least and the best of us are healthy". VaKo, im with you on the anti-universal medicine guys scaring me to. There arguments seem to just come from nowhere and they seem to work. I liked there "Hospitals in a Universal Health Care system cannot afford any equipment", id like to see them hold that up to the new £1.5 Million surgery robot my local hospital is getting to perform remote operations, those watchers of the Gadget Show will have seen a similar robot used to play the game Operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digip Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I don't mind the healthcare so much as its the insurance I can't afford. On top of that, some insurance restrict you from being able to have certain tests done, and if they deem you to have "pre existing" ailments, you can't get treatment for certain illnesses and disabilities. Overall, we need to have universal health coverage, because too many children do not have coverage, even with schip. Too many families that can't afford coverage are too ignorant to the fact that there are programs they can get on to help, even if they have little to no money. My problem is I make too much to put my kids on schip, and I ended up having to take a lower priced plan with high premium co-pays and deductibles, just so I could have coverage. If I had taken the plan they initially offered, I would have been paying nearly $180 per pay period, and that does not include money for medicine, which my wife has to have to survive, like her thyroid medication and insulin. It costs roughly $150-200 every time I do a refill, which lasts anywhere from 60-90 days, depending on her needs. Then add in the cost of test strips every month and regular doctor visits and blood work every few months, it starts to add up. Then add in the deductibles, because they come later on top of your co-pay. Oh, and did I mention that this was for just one person. I also have two small children who have to get their shots, checkups. My daughter was severely ill a few weeks back and I had her in the hospital 3 times in one week. Her fevers were 105 and they still have yet to be able to figure out what was making her sick. Her fevers last more than 7 days, and she lost about 10 pounds. Not good for a kid who only weighs about 40 pounds to begin with. Now the bills are coming in, and I can't afford the deductibles, on top off the other doctor bills, because when you go to a hospital, you get billed from like 4 different people. The Xray techs, in house doctors, hospital itself(co-pay), and any specialists they bring in or special tests. They all send separate bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKo Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 See, Digip highlights the biggest issue with US healthcare, while it does provide some of the best quality care on the planet it fails to address the issue of cost in a sensible fashion. As for the anti-universal coverage people, I think they highlight a trend which may very well lead to a disintergation of the US as we know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry99705 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 See, Digip highlights the biggest issue with US healthcare, while it does provide some of the best quality care on the planet it fails to address the issue of cost in a sensible fashion. As for the anti-universal coverage people, I think they highlight a trend which may very well lead to a disintergation of the US as we know it. I think it should be a mixture of what we (US) have now, and subsidized health care. We had a Canadian employee die of a brain tumor because he was on a waiting list to get the tests done. Had he been in the US our company insurance would have covered the scans and they may have been able to operate and fix the problem. To be honest I've only gone maybe 5 years in my life without some kind of health coverage. At the time I was still young enough that the only thing I would really need to see a doctor about would have been a fairly serious accident. If that were the case the hospital would have just billed me, and I'd probably still be paying it off.... I think the main problem with our system doesn't even have anything to do with the doctors, or the insurance companies. It's the lawyers. Too many people are "sue happy" and the lawyers let it happen. It used to be that being a doctor made you fairly wealthy, it's still not bad, but I take home more that some general practitioners. When more than half your income goes back out for malpractice insurance, something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3%5kr3w Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Well I will admit that I am not totally for universal health care, but am coming around, but trust me, us non-universals are not against it just to bitch and moan (well... some of us do that.. not all of us though) The major reason why these people are anti universal health care is because of what we have seen in the US in the past. Majorly with any government run helping system... It usually gets abused to all hell, does not do what it was supposed to in the first place, gets slathered with red tape, and eventually ends up being a useless pile of shit, that no one can nor will do anything about and so our taxes go up, and we pay for all of the mistakes.. 99% of what I am comparing it to is the welfare system. While I would love to have a universal health care system, I have to admit it's bad enough that as of now it takes forever to get into a hospital because of everyone that has a damn cold cant wait to go to a doctor so they just go there.. So after every other hypochondriac has universal health care, what would usually take hours may take days or weeks. This is the reason why I am against it. What really needs to happen is a cue system based on priority. If you have a cold, stand in line and take a number.. You have a rotten tooth that is poisoning your? get in the shorter line.. we will get to you eventually. You have accidentally severed your arm half way off and are bleeding on the floor? Come on it, they can wait.. That's my take on it, but the problem is there is no cue system like this... It's first come first serve, and until we have something like this in place in the US, then millions will probably either die or live with uncureable issues related to delay of care. This is not good. Yes a lot of people die right now and go hurting, or with a lower qol because we do not have universal health care, but it would seem to me that that number will at least triple (if not quadruple) if you have the UHC instated. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimmer Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Um Vako here is one everyone pays for everyone... now sure it would work in a utopia were everyone can afford it for everyone (so everyone got what they needed (the private insurance would work to though lol)). Ok lets say it is a nation of 10 people (to keep it simple) there are three families... Family 1 Wife and Husband Child 1 Child 2 (4 people) Family 1's Grandparents (so 8 people (2 on each side)) Ok and another Family Wife and Husband (10 people now) Ok each person over 18 pays taxes say 5$ a year so that is 8 people so a total of 40$ Now lets say there is some illnessess Both Grandpas have Cancer and there is an experimental treatment for 4$ each (so 8$) Now lets say the kids get sick and they use insurance for 4$ total ok so that is now 8$... now lets say the kids need azma medicine each month for 25 cents (so that is 6$ a year) So that is a total of 14$ Now the Family 2... the wife has a disease and she get healed and everything (insurance pays 5$ for treatment and everything) But she is in pain from the treatment and so has to take Vicodin for 3 months (so lets say a total cost of 5$) So that is now 24$ Now Grandma has a heartattack and her back gets hurt during moving to the hospital and so needs her back fixed and a pacemaker (so another say 10$) Now Family 1's Dad and Mom have bad allergies and need a medicine that is stronger than the norm and it costs (10$) NOW THE NUMBER are probably NOT TO SCALE BUT GO ALONG I don't want to have the place have 33 million people! Ok that is 44$ So now there is a negative cost... who are they going to drop... the Old people they have had a good life... the kids they haven't done anything to put back into the society.... Well here we will offer euthanasia for the old people they they can die nicely. But they don't want to die... if they had private insurance they could pay for themselves and be fine... WAIT THEY CAN!! but now they have to pay insurance for everyone and themselves!! (instead of themselves) ---------------------------------------- h3%5kr3w ok a cue system... but what if the person who has the same symptoms as a flue and the nurse does not take time to look at it more and see it is a deadly disease dies... she got to the hospital because she had a gut feeling it wasn't a flue because she just had one and got vaccinated etc... Death isn't good and yes it still happens but also think about it... --------------------- Paying for all it nice... but abuse etc and if you pay a little for everyone who does it go to Pay for you it goes to you if you have... else to bad (which is not good either) So bother systems SUCK but one is a lot easier to sort out even if it isn't nice (also did you know if you go to the ER in the US... you get treated and if you can't pay... everyone else gets to... so you do get help) -------------------------------- See, Digip highlights the biggest issue with US healthcare, while it does provide some of the best quality care on the planet it fails to address the issue of cost in a sensible fashion. Yes it provide you care... some of the best because if you want to get the care they give it to... then worry about bills... but in Canada the meds are cheap cheap cheap (well comparative) my Uncle would go over there to get his insulin because it was cheap BUT someone in Canada was paying for him!!!!! (BAD!!! Why should he pay for my uncle! (I still am happy my Uncle got cheap meds but still pay for yourself... it is the fairest method (not the spread the wealth nice method though... it is a cold and harsh method but IMO it is the best))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well to be fair America could probally afford to give everyone treatment at the Harley Street Clinic if you didn't have that stupidly sized military... Your euthanasia stuff is crap zimmer, no one has proposed that we kill off old folks. Ever. I don't even see a point attempting to debate you when you troll crap like that. Just grow up and think about what your saying before you post again, ok? Fin. What I do think is interesting about the whole debate about health care is that military hospitals are run by the government, and they appear to offer a higher level of care than general hospitals. If the US government can run those, why can't it do a decent job of providing a basic level of universal healthcare in tandem with private insurance? A healthy, productive workforce is required in these times so it would be beneficial. I should note that I pay national insurance and also have private medical coverage from work, which is classed as a taxable benefit. This means that I can get faster access to certain types of practitioner if I get sick, but it also means I help pay for my girlfriend's medical needs (she earns half what I do, and gets ill more) plus any emergency treatment I might need at A&E via national insurance. I don't see a problem with this, other than the only time I was sick enough to need medical intervention in the last decade was when I got swine flu last month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHB Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 As someone who is directly impacted by the US health care situation, I'm in favor of reform. I have to pay through the nose for private insurance and it's not even a decent policy. My rates go up twice a year and I can be cancelled at any time without recourse leaving me with no insurance. If that's not sucky enough, it's an "indemnity" plan meaning it only covers large medical expenses. If I want to see a doctor, I have to pay full tilt. It's all but worthless aside from keeping me out of bankruptcy court if I end up in the hostpital. You don't even wanna know what the rates are for a proper private health care plan, if I could even get one. All I want is a government sponsored insurance plan that gives me full coverage at an affordable price without concern over cancellation or rejection. This is what our president is trying to accomplish. I honestly don't understand what all these people are up in arms about. There's no doubt the current system is not working. So, according to these people, we should just leave our heads in the sand while more and more people go without health care and costs continue to sykyrocket. It's ridiculous that a nation, supposedly a world leader, is not able to provide affordable health care to the vast majority of its citizens. I honestly believe the resistance is a ploy backed by those who stand to lose a lot of money if anything changes. If that's not the case, there are a lot of seriously mislead people in my country. I can understand the resistance to "socialized" medicine. The US has always been strongly anti-socialist for good reasons and I tend to agree with those. However, I believe this is a situation that may require some compromise. Idealism and reality don't often have a lot in common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimmer Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 Ok fine Vako the government won't euthanasia them directly but by not being able to cover everyone they will be a cause... So what get more insurance... ok so now instead of just private insurance... have forced government insurance AND private insurance... why not make it opt in insurance... because then it wouldn't work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Zimmer, the whole issue of reform is based on a large chunk of your population not having any health care beyond emergency treatment, people are already dieing because they can't get the medicine, treatments or surgery they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHB Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Emergency treatment is at the root of the problem. What's happening is the costs hospitals incurr providing emergency services to people who can't pay are getting passed on to those who can, either out-of-pocket or through their insurance plans. As more people receive services without paying, costs go up for those who can. As costs go up, insurance becomes less accessible. More people go without it. The uninsured end up in emergency rooms because they can't afford preventative care. It's a self-destructive cycle. Our government is trying to break the cycle by making insurance available to everyone. It's not really socialized medicine, it's socialized insurance. A lot of people have a problem with that for various reasons, but I don't think there's a choice. Something has to be done. I need a decent health care plan and I can't get one right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seshan Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Yes it provide you care... some of the best because if you want to get the care they give it to... then worry about bills... but in Canada the meds are cheap cheap cheap (well comparative) my Uncle would go over there to get his insulin because it was cheap BUT someone in Canada was paying for him!!!!! (BAD!!! Why should he pay for my uncle! (I still am happy my Uncle got cheap meds but still pay for yourself... it is the fairest method (not the spread the wealth nice method though... it is a cold and harsh method but IMO it is the best))) What do you mean some one was paying for him? Quoted for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_..._compared#Drugs One of the most important differences between the two countries is the much higher cost of drugs in the United States. In the U.S., $728 per capita is spent each year on drugs, while in Canada it is $509.[69] At the same time, consumption is higher in Canada, with about 12 prescriptions being filled per person each year in Canada and 10.6 in the United States.[71] The main difference is that patented drug prices in Canada average between 35% and 45% lower than in the United States.[72] The price differential for brand-name drugs between the two countries has led Americans to purchase upward of $1 billion US in drugs per year from Canadian pharmacies.[73] There are several reasons for the disparity. The Canadian system takes advantage of centralized buying by the provincial governments that have more market heft and buy in bulk, lowering prices. By contrast, the U.S. has explicit laws that prohibit Medicare or Medicaid from negotiating drug prices. In addition, price negotiations by Canadian health insurers are based on evaluations of the clinical effectiveness of prescription drugs,[74] allowing the relative prices of therapeutically-similar drugs to be considered in context. The Canadian Patented Medicine Prices Review Board also has the authority to set a fair and reasonable price on patented products, either comparing it to similar drugs already on the market, or by taking the average price in seven developed nations.[75][76] Prices are also lowered through more limited patent protection in Canada. In the U.S., a drug patent may be extended five years to make up for time lost in development.[77] Some generic drugs are thus available on Canadian shelves sooner.[78] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3%5kr3w Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 While I will admit that insurance is WAY too high, I just do not think that universal health care is the resolution. It seems to me to be like a Microsoft Patch, Tighten one thing and in turn loosen another. In other countries I definitely see U.H. as a great thing and for good reason. I am not all "if your into universal health care your a communist" I think that people who say that are just bullshitters. They think that there is some dark, secrecy clad room of ten people (ala MGS2 er something) that are the people that make the world go round everyday and think that they are just swaying us all in toward communism.. It's pointless. Really. But what I do think is that drug companies, insurance companies, and hospitals need to get their ass reamed because of all the high prices. Everyone thinks it was the poor people that shafted the hospitals that shafted the insurance companies which in turn shafted the drug companies, but really it's the whole other way around. Drugs became a gold mine, insurance companies got greedy, and hospitals decided to screw everybody. Your paying in the ballpark of $50 for tylenol in a friggin hospital! I mean cmon... BUT Doctors and hospitals have to pay MASSIVE ammounts for malpractice insurance.. Insurance companies have to pay MASSIVE pay outs to patients because of horrible hospitals and doctors Drug companies are getting hit with lawsuits all the time because I feel that the FDA did not do it's job but at the same time, drug companies are paying under the table to shave time off of research and green lights from the FDA. It's like rock paper scissors but were always on the loosing team. I watched a documentary once where it was a staged person going in to get a quote for a surgery with and without insurance. The one with insurance was quoted 7x the amount as the person without insurance. What needs to happen is we need the government to police these entities, not soften their lives. Sure they wont be making as much (maybe) with U.H. but the cycle will still continue. This is the reason why I do not think U.H. is practical. Not because I do not think it will work (it will work.. that's actually not the issue) but because it will just make taxes AND the national deficit skyrocket. It's just a big patch.. Kind of like if there was a service pack 1 of ME. You can patch it all you want, it's still going to suck. And the bottom line really here is the fact that we will have to pay. Now here is the other thing, will we see it? well yes an no. It's always the same issue. Taxes go up, prices go up, lower class is left out in the cold, the government mandates an elevation in minimum wage, businesses tighten up and lay off workers, once everything settles the U.S. dollar get's that much more worthless, and so the cycle continues. This is the reason why the bush administration stuck us where we are now, and even though I do not feel that everyone thinks this will happen, that is what is very possible to happen if U.H. is not properly administered. One more thing *sry this is such a long ass post btw* I think that the reason why I as well as a lot of other people are so scared about this is because we as Americans are WAY out of our comfort zone with everything that has happened in the past 10 years, and we have seen a lot of crappy things happen all around us. It really does freak us out, and we are all just to the point that we just don't want it to get any worse than what it already is. We are to the point to where we just wanna see positive, and not negative. We demand ONLY positive results now, because we are sick of seeing negatives, and with the great big toilet that the bush administration has thrown this country and economy into, we all fear that it will only get worse. I think that is the reason why this scares us. We don't wanna see more government help, we want to see government reform. We want to see us standing on our own two feet, not just shoveling money we don't have into other people's wallets. Whatever happens at this point, I only pray that it is a good thing and that it will help turn this country around. I only hope that my future children as well as everyone else's do not see an economical and social downfall to the extremes that we have seen since the 80's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimmer Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 Even Chuck Noris is scared of this... what does that tell you... Also great post h3%5kr3w (why do I always read you name hackzor screw?? LOL) and definitely not too long. Oh Chuck Noris link... found some... http://townhall.com/columnists/ChuckNorris..._1_in_obamacare Enjoy... and happy Obamacare :) :) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKo Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 h3%5kr3w, your basically saying that Americans are to incompetent to run a healthcare system that works in most other developed countries? You went to the moon ffs, so don't give me that crap. All you need to do now is stop putting profit above all else in every situation, its that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merctom Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Zimmer and h3%5kr3w your arguments are flawed. You can not rely on the market to balance the cost when the product cannot be refused. You argue that taxes and spending will go up, what your not taking into account is that the current system cost want be carried through as they will be replaced. The current system in the US is not working and is not sustainable in any type of term. Lets have a quick look at some figures from the OECD (2007). Health expenditure as a share of GDP. US 16% France 11% (closest spender) Average 8.9% Canada 10.1% (added as US compare themselves to canada a lot) Health Expenditure per capita (private + public). US $7290 Norway $4763 Average $2964 Canada $3805 Now I can already hear you complaining that it includes both private and public, what about just public? Apart from 2 other countries (Norway and Luxembourg) the US Spends more than the other 31 countries, in fact it spends more publicly than the average of Private and Public. The current US medical system is flawed and needs replacing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seshan Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Zimmer and h3%5kr3w your arguments are flawed. You can not rely on the market to balance the cost when the product cannot be refused. You argue that taxes and spending will go up, what your not taking into account is that the current system cost want be carried through as they will be replaced. The current system in the US is not working and is not sustainable in any type of term. Lets have a quick look at some figures from the OECD (2007). Health expenditure as a share of GDP. US 16% France 11% (closest spender) Average 8.9% Canada 10.1% (added as US compare themselves to canada a lot) Health Expenditure per capita (private + public). US $7290 Norway $4763 Average $2964 Canada $3805 Now I can already hear you complaining that it includes both private and public, what about just public? Apart from 2 other countries (Norway and Luxembourg) the US Spends more than the other 31 countries, in fact it spends more publicly than the average of Private and Public. The current US medical system is flawed and needs replacing. But but if you replace it what will all the poor corporations do with out their billions of dollars!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tactix Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 While I would love to have a universal health care system, I have to admit it's bad enough that as of now it takes forever to get into a hospital because of everyone that has a damn cold cant wait to go to a doctor so they just go there.. So after every other hypochondriac has universal health care, what would usually take hours may take days or weeks. This is the reason why I am against it. What really needs to happen is a cue system based on priority. If you have a cold, stand in line and take a number.. You have a rotten tooth that is poisoning your? get in the shorter line.. we will get to you eventually. You have accidentally severed your arm half way off and are bleeding on the floor? Come on it, they can wait.. Just my thoughts. in the uk if you even thought of going to the hospital with something as stupid as the common cold you would be laughed at by the staff nurse and told to go see your bloody doctor in the morning, if you have a rotten tooth er goto the dentist retard, if you have severed your arm you would already be in accident and emergency thanks to the local ambulance service but without the stress of thinking damn am i covered for juggling with chainsaws. there is no reason a state sponsored health plan cant work its a damn site more fair than insurance companys making the damn rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle 2.0 Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 The biggest argument against govt. run healthcare is the VA. Its a mess. If the govt. can't even handle healthcare for veterans, what makes anyone think they can handle it for the rest of the country? I'll give the Democrats some credit though, atleast the new plan makes it very clear that illegal immigrants won't be covered. The US isn't willing to enforce immigration laws while hospitals all over the southwest go bankrupt and close because illegals can't afford to pay for their hospital trips. And with people sitting on welfare for years on end, why in the world would I want another massive govt. social system that responsible citizens will be paying even more taxes to support? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3%5kr3w Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Ya know what? I am glad you brought up the VA Kyle, cause your absolutely right. The VA is a sham and a half. Ask ANY veteran... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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