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Obama speech being aired at schools.


Zimmer
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Obama's Speech  

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    • Why do you keep posting so many political threads do you like getting your arguments shredded apart?
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This is why I love freedom of speech, even stupid people like the A-team guy can say & beleive whatever they want. Sure beleive whatever the republicans tell you and dont think for you self.. alot of them are brain washed by their parents also to beleive whatever they think. I bet if it was up to the republicans we could not even have this debate right now (they would take that right away from US citizens, dictatorship style stuff). Why are you so againts public health care? people can still pay tons of money to have their fav. private doc. This is just helping Americans all the way around, health care is important. Why should all of Americas Healthcare be private? I think their should be a public option also instead of a emergency rooom visit which may cost 500$ instead of a 50$ visit to diagonose. Right now there is only a private option for healthcare, healthcare is a important thing to me, to my future kids, and to everyone else in my country. Private healthcare is ripping US all off right now.

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If healthcare is "important" then you wouldn't use public.

Referring to "we could not even have this debate right now (they would take that right away from US citizens, dictatorship style stuff)."

Was Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union Left-Wing? Are China and North Korea left-wing? I forgot.

The only example of socialism being any good is Venezuela and look how shit it turning now.

Obama aint no Napoleon.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danielhannan/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/geraldwarner/

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If healthcare is "important" then you wouldn't use public.

Referring to "we could not even have this debate right now (they would take that right away from US citizens, dictatorship style stuff)."

Was Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union Left-Wing? Are China and North Korea left-wing? I forgot.

The only example of socialism being any good is Venezuela and look how shit it turning now.

Obama aint no Napoleon.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danielhannan/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/geraldwarner/

Be glad that you have the right to freedom of speech in your country. Freedom is not always free.

yeah , ok haha hard core left-wing people? what would that even be? I have no idea or ever seen one.

You said "Obama aint no Napoleon" what do you mean by that? Are you trying to make it sound like Obama has some kind of short complex like Napoleon did? Why are you comparing them?

Remember you can say what you can because of the people before you that set down the laws, right now we are setting them down for the internet. Get with the program, if your not some of us may get a syntax error

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Deags, I've not said that socialism is the way to go. What I am saying is that a:

If you want people to succeed in a free market economy you have to educate them to a high standard (and not just those who can afford to pay for it or you just reinforce class barriers), provide relevant skills training to those out of work along side the opportunity for getting work (best done with the private sector, but sometimes you need to use the public sector) by creating jobs (either by building infrastructure or investing in the places that need it) and ensure that the basic level of health care available to all is able to keep people healthy and working by being preventative rather than reactively in nature. All of this costs money and requires taxes to pay for it. This isn't some bullshit about lazy people *only* working 40 hours a week, its about a systemic failure to help raise people out of poverty and get them to a point where they can earn money and pay taxes also.

And b:

Over the course of the last couple of decades the balance between business interests and public welfare has shifted dramatical in favor of big business. This has generated wealth for a subset of the worlds population but for most people it hasn't. Trickle down economics just does not have the effect its proponents have insisted that it would. The lack of social investment has lead to huge chunks of 1st world countries populations being completely left behind and put most of the rest of us in a less well off position. What we need is to redress the balance between the interest of business and the society's they rely on. This might slow down the frantic rate that which monetary wealth has been generated, but it will lead to a more balanced society and a reduction in social problems, caused by lack of investment in education, training and a welfare system that is designed to help people get back on there feet rather than bob along in some form of limbo without improving there situation.

VaKo the UK is pretty screwed, you guys(like us) are lowering your standard of living by the second. Every government stuff-up, boat load of foreigners and government job created. Check this article out. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwa...n-in-doncaster/

The man has vague and spurious ideas, many of which may not be legally implementable and most of which will not work. I doubt he will be re-elected. As for the rest of the UK, our problems have all come from our governments over reliance on the financial sector and there love of big government projects that do nothing but eat money. They try and involve themselves in many things they have no place being involved and lack the cohesive vision to achieve anything. They rely on focus groups and public opinion rather than judgment and planning, which means they are reactive rather than pro-active. They failed to invest in areas where it was needed, and let social problems get out of hand because of there love of big business. They let a whole generation of people do nothing and still get welfare checks without making any effort to improve things.

Governments do not need to be productive, its not there job. Governments need to focus on the areas required to allow business to flourish without letting the balance of power shift to far in there favor. This means keeping infrastructure up to date and maintained, keeping education high quality and effective and ensuring that things like social services and health care are there when people need them. You shouldn't need to rely on the government for anything, but it should be there when you need it.

Was Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union Left-Wing? Are China and North Korea left-wing? I forgot.

The Nazi's where nationalistic fascists, the soviets where communists, north korea is a dictatorship and china? We don't have a word for what china is yet, its not communist though. I suspect that when we do have a word for what china is, it won't be a European origin word.

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Ok Three Questions

1) Why do you buy health insurance? I know simple just answer.

2) Why would the government do a better job then private what motivation do they have?

3) Honestly I can't stop thinking that a comparison to natrual selection would be easily made (weak die, strong survive (not saying I agree but still...))

big government projects that do nothing but eat money.

*cough**cough* public insurance *cough**cough* :) <-- too easy ;)

QUOTE

Was Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union Left-Wing? Are China and North Korea left-wing? I forgot.

The Nazi's where nationalistic fascists, the soviets where communists, north korea is a dictatorship and china? We don't have a word for what china is yet, its not communist though. I suspect that when we do have a word for what china is, it won't be a European origin word.

Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Communist China, and North Korea... Pure EVIL!

TWO VOTES For "Why do you keep posting so many political threads do you like getting your arguments shredded apart?"

Also Vako are you talking about redistirbution of wealth.. you do know WE and WE only put those people in power and money. We can stop it... speak with you money and your vote and when voting ALWAYS ALWAYS be a skeptic paranoid only way you can see through the layers of deceit :)

If you want people to succeed in a free market economy you have to educate them to a high standard (and not just those who can afford to pay for it or you just reinforce class barriers)

Ok a) public schools are in the shitter compared to private, why because private teachers get paid less (this isn't a direct point) so why are they doing this.. they care they enjoy teaching (not saying all public school teachers are bad either) they do it because they want to teach and so make sure each student learns.

a subpoint) Those who go to private are generally better educated and yet why do they have to pay for others kids and facilities they don't use (why do they have to pay for public school!)

Also I still can't draw my mind away to natural selection no matter how sick it seems (not saying I want it or endorse it).

b ) The more people who go to private the less it will cost.

c) I forget... will add later

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What kills me about this is that we are talking about public schools - which are provided by the government. If you don't want your kid exposed to such a thing then you need to provide your own schooling for them.

I was one of the two who voted for why do you keep posting political threads - because honestly, that's not what I come to these forums for. But here I am reading and replying in one lol.

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5ive it is in everything else and I am fine with you voting for it, I put it in as a joke :) Also no to not do public school you can do private school (public school in this sense it the tax paid government ran place that can't teach people to read when they are in high school (and it isn't the student's fault))

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Ok Three Questions

1) Why do you buy health insurance? I know simple just answer.

Because I can jump the queue and not have to wait for some non-emergency treatment that I would otherwise have to wait a few months for.

2) Why would the government do a better job then private what motivation do they have?

They have to pay for emergency care, disability payments, they loose tax revenue on people to ill to work. Ill people are expensive to look after (why US insurance firms try and drop them asap), where as preventative care is often a lot cheaper.

3) Honestly I can't stop thinking that a comparison to natrual selection would be easily made (weak die, strong survive (not saying I agree but still...))

Your not Glen Beck, stop apeing him. Social darwanism doesn't work, and what happens when you get cancer or your loved ones, should we just put a bullet in your heads to make life easier for the the rest of us?

*cough**cough* public insurance *cough**cough* :) <-- too easy ;)

Stupid things like vast armys and failed geo-poltican intervention like Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2 and Afganistan. Huge goverment databases to control people, vast police state funding, pointless social engineering projects with no factual basis, the list goes on. Insuring that people have a basic level of decent healthcare no matter what is not a waste of money.

Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Communist China, and North Korea... Pure EVIL!

The Nazi's were a very nasty regime, the North Korean regime is pretty bad (lots of starving people etc). China and the USSR though? They were not evil. Stalin was very nasty, but Khrushchev denounced Stalins policy's and led the USSR along a far less repressive path, which resulted in a lot of economic, social and agricultural reforms. Ultimately the failed to reform fast enough and deep enough, and coupled with an excess of spending on the military it eventually led to the collapse of the USSR. China is not evil, they have a very good economic relation with the US, most of the stuff in your house probally comes from china.

Also, where the people living in these regimes evil? No, they were people just like you and me who were living there lives and trying to do the best they could. Some of the regimes worked and others failed. Calling people evil is a childish statement at best.

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Ok a) public schools are in the shitter compared to private, why because private teachers get paid less (this isn't a direct point) so why are they doing this.. they care they enjoy teaching (not saying all public school teachers are bad either) they do it because they want to teach and so make sure each student learns.

a subpoint) Those who go to private are generally better educated and yet why do they have to pay for others kids and facilities they don't use (why do they have to pay for public school!)

Also I still can't draw my mind away to natural selection no matter how sick it seems (not saying I want it or endorse it).

b ) The more people who go to private the less it will cost.

c) I forget... will add later

Public schools are not doing well because we failed to invest in them, private schools operate like businesses and can be more selective about the kids they enroll. Public schools have to take kids no matter what. Relying on private education means that parents cannot afford it for there kids cannot provide them with an education, which means they are less useful in a work force when they grow up and will not be able to provide private education for there kids. With a high quality level of public education you can reduce poverty, create a more productive workforce and increase social mobility.

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Vako I wasn't meaning to Apeing Glen Beck I never listen to him, also I am against killing people (abortion and euthanasia) IT WAS a thought I do not agree with it.

The PURE Evil was not the people but what the goverment did...

Death Tolls

Stalin 200 Million People

Hitler 700 Million

China Unkown but a lot (see free tebet in the Olympics in Beijing)

North Korea Unkown

... Unkown is I don't know the others are what I have read (though I may have forgot) still I know they kill a lot.

China... good relations HA! We don't have a good relation ship with them it is more of US can't kill them but if we stop buying from them they are screwed.

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VaKo, thanks for the detailed response. You clearly put some time into that. I really with state education was better. In Australia our state education is a classic case of do-gooders doing no good. Our curriculum is full of nonsense. With unions pushing for less working hours for teachers there is less time to teach all this new curriculum(which private schools simply ignore). So the students struggling get left behind even further. Parents today are refusing to play a role in their child's education be it maths and English or simple things like boundaries and morals. All this extra pressure is being put on the schools and we still only have 12 years and 5 days a week. I feel government should be pushing parents to do better. The government refused to remove the dead weight in education or motivate good teachers to excel because the union movement is so large.

As for healthcare. You live in the UK. NHS(or medicare in Australia) works.. but it isn't a good as it could be. I think this largely comes down to vicious unions and dead weight not allowing either better motivation with wages or better infrastructure. It isn't always the case of needing more doctors... maybe you just need better doctors and nurses.

As for "creating" jobs in the public sector. That I struggle to understand because for every public sector job you need several people working real jobs to pay for them.

For Zimmer:

1. Because health is a priority and the government fails to deliver.

2. They need to answer to the voters. This is never the case though because people don't prioritise health enough to factor it into their vote.

3. We should at least give every person needs the basic skills to enter the rat race. I feel those are High-school Education, Mum & Dad, duty of care to them(police protection or treatment when ill) and freedom. Those are the minimum for a civilised nation.

I could expand on all those answers doe Zimmer, so don't think they are as clear cut as I have put there, i just hope one understand my points made.

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USSR was not very kind VaKo. It's a common misconception because the British made it law that only germans could be charged for war crimes.

Zimmer:

Private schools teachers accept lowers salaries because it is a better working environment. Better facilities and better students in many cases draws them in. Private schools for the most part are very strict on students giving them the boundaries they need to respect their older, parents and teacher. Do-Gooders block any such action in state schools. Many State Schools in Australia get money thrown at them, but with out the support of good teachers these facilities get wasted.

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VaKo, thanks for the detailed response. You clearly put some time into that. I really with state education was better. In Australia our state education is a classic case of do-gooders doing no good. Our curriculum is full of nonsense. With unions pushing for less working hours for teachers there is less time to teach all this new curriculum(which private schools simply ignore). So the students struggling get left behind even further. Parents today are refusing to play a role in their child's education be it maths and English or simple things like boundaries and morals. All this extra pressure is being put on the schools and we still only have 12 years and 5 days a week. I feel government should be pushing parents to do better. The government refused to remove the dead weight in education or motivate good teachers to excel because the union movement is so large.

That is a problem, education needs to focus less on the current political aims of the government and not try and serve as some form of social engineering project. It needs to focus more on the fundamentals of learning, basic skills people need to achieve well, to encourage innovative thinking and to allow people to adapt to jobs that weren't even dreamed up when they were in school. You cannot teach a kid everything in school, but you can teach them how to learn on there own, to be curious and to seek out answers to there own questions. And your right, parents need to be encouraged to be more involved in there kids learning rather than relying in the government to do it all for them.

As for healthcare. You live in the UK. NHS(or medicare in Australia) works.. but it isn't a good as it could be. I think this largely comes down to vicious unions and dead weight not allowing either better motivation with wages or better infrastructure. It isn't always the case of needing more doctors... maybe you just need better doctors and nurses.

We need less managers and policy makers, and more health care practitioners. So much funding is wasted on crap we don't need.

As for unions, they are required to ensure that the employer-employee relationship isn't one sided. But when unions are no longer run by actual workers, and run by career union staff who don't actually work in the jobs they are supposed to be representing there is a problem.

As for "creating" jobs in the public sector. That I struggle to understand because for every public sector job you need several people working real jobs to pay for them.

Its never the best solution, but sometimes its required. If you want new roads its almost certainly better to pay a private company to do the actual work than to hire road workers yourself.

USSR was not very kind VaKo. It's a common misconception because the British made it law that only germans could be charged for war crimes.

They were bastards during the war (the red army raped and murdered my grandfathers first wife when they "liberated" Latvia. But post-Stalin things did improve dramatically.

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Do you think schools should show the speech by president Obama

Me?

Yes, BUT the parents see if first and let their kid see it if they want them too, unless your a senoir who is 18 then let them (they are adults).

The speech had nothing to do with HC and did not contain any policy's what's so ever. President, whether Dem or Rep have been doing it for decades. When the first Bush talked to the students the Dems cried about just as now. The opposing side will always look for the bad first in there opponent. It's just with the web and the 24hr news channels every small things tend to grow much faster and republicans have learned how to control it the best.. i mean... they have their own channel for god's sake.

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Something i'm just watching now.

That was good food for thought, thanks for the link. I still believe public health care is a good idea though. Basic dental should also be included.

That would create tons of jobs in the health care field right now, not to mention IT fields because every hospital has computers in it.

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Healthcare is great! Private that is, one question, just to make sure I understand. Why should one person pay for another person's healthcare instead of their own?

Because everyone paying a little bit is better the one person having to sell their house and living on the streets because their corrupt insurance company wouldn't cover the health care they needed.

Hey Zimmer where you at this?

these people sound exactly like you!

It's funny that you don't see country's with public health care protesting to get rid of it because it's so bad!!

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QUOTE (Zimmer @ Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:57:58 +0000)

Healthcare is great! Private that is, one question, just to make sure I understand. Why should one person pay for another person's healthcare instead of their own?

Because everyone paying a little bit is better the one person having to sell their house and living on the streets because their corrupt insurance company wouldn't cover the health care they needed.

Hey Zimmer where you at this?

these people sound exactly like you!

It's funny that you don't see country's with public health care protesting to get rid of it because it's so bad!!

Is the paying a little bit of another's include paying there own too? Or is it that others pay a little of yours to, how would that work then...

For example say a nation has 5 people and each person has healthcare that costs 50 on average...

1 0 $

2 needs medication uses 75 $

3 Eats unhealthily and does not exercise needs a bypass costs 95$

4 Gets Cancer costs 100 $

5 Costs 0 $ They are healthy

So that is 270 over the estimated average so they up taxes to pay for that but does everyone pay the same or do the people who cost less pay less? Also what if there is a plus do they save the money of put it into other prijects (what cause Medicare hell (lots of people put money in not so many take it out but then when all those people need the money it isn't there)), Got to go will make more sense later.

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Is the paying a little bit of another's include paying there own too? Or is it that others pay a little of yours to, how would that work then...

For example say a nation has 5 people and each person has healthcare that costs 50 on average...

1 0 $

2 needs medication uses 75 $

3 Eats unhealthily and does not exercise needs a bypass costs 95$

4 Gets Cancer costs 100 $

5 Costs 0 $ They are healthy

So that is 270 over the estimated average so they up taxes to pay for that but does everyone pay the same or do the people who cost less pay less? Also what if there is a plus do they save the money of put it into other prijects (what cause Medicare hell (lots of people put money in not so many take it out but then when all those people need the money it isn't there)), Got to go will make more sense later.

You can't really put it down to such low numbers of people. With a few people it does not work, but if you put the same thing to a whole population, the numbers work out. Its one of these things that don't quite work simplified.

Your simplification is not really realistic either. You are saying that 80% of people get cancer which is obviously an over estimation.

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