Living in the public eye

[murder_face]

The fact they admit they have no evidence, yet still suspend you, you have more patience than me. I'd ask for it in writing that you we're found innocent. Then take that and the suspension to a lawyer. They could be paying for your college if they aren't careful with a counterclaim complaint.

My thoughts exactly. I not one of those "I slipped on the PeePee at Costco" people, but it sounds like at the least you can get them to pay for a decent college education for you. They outright admitted to profiling you and punishing you for something they can't prove. Even in a trial by jury there is the "burden of proof". I'm not your mom and I don't know where you stand financially, but free money is free money. You probably won't ever have to go to court 10 to 1 says they settle, and if they do have your legal fees thrown into the settlement....

Edited December 19, 2012 by murder_face

[newbi3]

I finally convinced my parents into going down there and calling their bullshit. Like combatwombat said I don't want to cause a fight that I will be remember for ever. If this can all be handled with only my family involved I will try that first but trust me I have talked to my parents about talking to a lawyer and just seeing what my options are and then going from there.

[digip]

Yeah, don't make threats at the school, but definitely get it on record they said no evidence found against you, and a lawyers advice, even if it costs $100 for an hour consultation, might make all the difference. This is all for you, but it could also set laws in motion to protect others from the same unlawful abuse of power by school officials and districts over children. I would imagine, whatever "contract" the school said you signed, as a minor, you parents would also have to be made aware of its a legal binding contractual agreement that can be held up in a court of law. Kids don't deserve this police state mentality. Especially when they've done nothing and are being persecuted or discriminated against, with bias opinion and not facts, based on the way they dress, talk, or how smart they are in your case. Its wrong to pick on someone, then say, no evidence to show you did anything, but still going to suspend you anyway. Thats complete bullshit.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

The school is violating the Amendment. You are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. This school is suspending you because of your sticker... plain and simple. The funny thing is that they found out that one of the office employees opened an email; probably spoofed email with "Important Salary Cuts" or "American Teachers Association". I bet you my left pinky that the sticker was in violation of school policy.

In other words; they insinuate you COULD have done it. You are young. Not implying Digip is old. but I have been around long enough to see how fucked up the school systems have gotten. It makes me sick to see you get punished for your interests.... You aren't smoking crack and touching other kids wrong; what the hell is wrong with representing Hak5? It IS NOT as bad sporting a N.A.M.B.L.A sticker... (if you don't know what NAMBLA is... you probably don't want to).

Two more questions: Are you enrolled in a public school and do you have authorization to bring your laptop to school? The simple fact you got suspended is enough to start litigation (AND THAT SUSPENSION IS ON YOUR PERMANENT RECORD)

PS / Have your parents record the conversation they have with the school. Let the person whom they are talking to about the situation know that you are recording this for your own records. It is illegal to record a conversation the other is unaware of (unless you have a warrant to do so... in which you won't)

Edited December 19, 2012 by Pwnd2Pwnr

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

I'm going to say the same thing we discussed on the IRC channel. Yes they may be handling it wrong. Yes it is unfair, but you have a year and a half or so since your parents aren't punishing you just take the suspension as a free vacation that no one else gets and don't worry about it. As long as you still will be able to take your tests etc when you get back it really isn't hurting you. My fear is if you make to big a "stink" out of it then you will only end up hurting yourself. If you were in college or something I would say fight it as being out of class can really hurt your grades, but high school you should be fine.

Any suspension is recorded. High Schools record them and they are sent with College Applications.

[newbi3]

The school is violating the Amendment. You are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. This school is suspending you because of your sticker... plain and simple. The funny thing is that they found out that one of the office employees opened an email; probably spoofed email with "Important Salary Cuts" or "American Teachers Association". I bet you my left pinky that the sticker was in violation of school policy.

In other words; they insinuate you COULD have done it. You are young. Not implying Digip is old. but I have been around long enough to see how fucked up the school systems have gotten. It makes me sick to see you get punished for your interests.... You aren't smoking crack and touching other kids wrong; what the hell is wrong with representing Hak5? It IS NOT as bad sporting a N.A.M.B.L.A sticker... (if you don't know what NAMBLA is... you probably don't want to).

Two more questions: Are you enrolled in a public school and do you have authorization to bring your laptop to school? The simple fact you got suspended is enough to start litigation (AND THAT SUSPENSION IS ON YOUR PERMANENT RECORD)

PS / Have your parents record the conversation they have with the school. Let the person whom they are talking to about the situation know that you are recording this for your own records. It is illegal to record a conversation the other is unaware of (unless you have a warrant to do so... in which you won't)

Yes I am allowed to bring my own computer to school and use it freely when I need (as long as its not during a test or lecture etc).

My parents just got back from the school and the school gave them the same crap that they always do. "Oh he's a good kid we don't hate him" and the reason why I am getting suspended is because, and this isn't an exact quote, "I had a device that could have caused harm and taken someones bank account or other personal information." They are referring to the pineapple which never had karma enabled (except for when I was demoing it for 3 people teacher included), and it was never tethered or plugged into a switch or wall or anything. It was sitting by it self with me sshed into it (only during my networking class). I tried to explain to them that it doesn't work the way they think but you can't explain to someone who only knows how to check e-mail how anything works. At this point I am by my self with any action I would take against them and it would ruin a job opportunity for me so I am just going to let it sit. It's done.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

Well, I do not understand the entire "ruin job opportunities"... the damage is done. Your school has "washed" its hands with your parents. They do reserve the right for the suspension because of the possession of the Pineapple. It is not legal to sniff wifi traffic and tell it Yes (though fun :), this is the underlying issue....

Good luck... and don't bring your gadgets to school... :D

[newbi3]

Well, I do not understand the entire "ruin job opportunities"... the damage is done. Your school has "washed" its hands with your parents. They do reserve the right for the suspension because of the possession of the Pineapple. It is not legal to sniff wifi traffic and tell it Yes (though fun :), this is the underlying issue....

Good luck... and don't bring your gadgets to school... :D

The funny thing is they told me I am aloud to have it at school I just have to tell my networking teacher its there.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

Just wow... get used to the hypocrisy. It doesn't stop there. Graduate school and go on to do great things. Just don't tell many people about what you know.... ya know?

Good Luck on your endeavors and hope you find great success! I would kill to know what I know now and be able to be in school again... I had a problem with too much partying... :P

[Drei_Drachen]

Look, as the System Admin for our school, I don't allow students to bring a pineapple to school. Whether you're using it to be malicious, mischievousness, or despite all temptation, you're just carrying it for "after school use"...the answer is no. That said, I would warn a student long before referring them to the principal for suspension. Like Pwnd2Pwnr said, leave the gadgets at home.

All that said, good luck in your studies.

[digip]

Not sure I would want a job at a place that falsely accused me of something, then said no evidence, yet still punished me for it. Especially when they are still knee jerking you around with remarks like "potential" for abuse. Guess what. I know how to kick people in the nuts. Doesn't mean I go around town doing it all day...

What they did, is abuse of power and knowing they can't prove it, trying to cover their ass and not something you should accept as normal. If you do, people will get used to taking advantage of you, because you didn't stand up for yourself. Not saying be a trouble maker or cause a big stir. I would finish school, but not accept a job from them on their work ethics alone.

Thats like a rapist who abuses you and convinces you not to tell on them, somehow buy you off by offering you a job to shut you up because they know, they have no leg to stand on.You say, "Ok, I won't tell anyone what happened. Since you're now paying me and reducing the amount of butthurt, I'll get over it and just move on." Sorry, but don't sell yourself short. Policy or not, finish the school year, graduate, and get the hell out of that place. Accepting the 2 day suspension, is like waving your rights and saying you're guilty. Anyone later would say, well, if you were innocent, why did you accept the suspension?

They used FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) and intimidation to get you to submit.

Edited December 19, 2012 by digip

[combatwombat27]

The came back and specifically said he was punished for the device. Honestly I think it is just. I don't believe you were trying to be malicious but that really isn't something that I would want in any school I was an IT admin to allow something of that nature as most kids just are not trustworthy. Most kids find it more interesting to use thing maliciously than to use it for white hat learning.

Again, maybe a little harsh but really any lawyering up at this point is unrealistic. I also think that any attempt to sue over something is petty at best and looking for a quick buck. Come on guys that is ridiculous.

[digip]

The came back and specifically said he was punished for the device.

#1 - The initial charge, was that he hacked the teachers facebook accounts.

Honestly I think it is just.

#2 - They said they couldn't find evidence of any wrong doing, so it wasn't just that. They pulled him from class, accused him of wrong doing, and searched his effects. They used intimidation, and stereotypical profiling. Is the Pineapple a good thing to bring to school? Doesn't make a hill of beans difference, its a router. He admitted a demo in his class which was something he was given permission to do. End of story.

Most kids find it more interesting to use thing maliciously than to use it for white hat learning.

This is the same mentality of the teacher, and the principal. Did the school have a specific policy against gadgets of any kind? I've not once heard him say so. In fact, to the contrary, he said they told him he was allowed to bring his laptop to school.

He is the poster child for the same thing the media does. Its immediately "hackers are criminals", no matter what they say, may or may not have done. The sticker on his laptop is prejudice enough reason for them to go after him and the one teachers, over zealous ignorance in this area as to what she "thinks" the kid did. He's been labeled. Its a label that will follow him, especially if he is suspended over this.

Its like kids that have been kicked out of school, because they've died their hair black and wore Marilon Manson shirts to school that the bible belt schools of the south midwestern states sent droves of kids home because it was "against" school policy and considered offensive. You might as well call him black, and tell him to go sit in the back of the bus. If people can't see this as prejudice and intimidation and call it what it is, I don't think we as a society can complain, when we are skipped over for that next job because, oh, hes got a tattoo, or an earing, or his hair is a little too long, or his skin color is the wrong color, his accent is of middle eastern descent so he must be a terrorist, or her skirt was so short she must have wanted to be raped, etc, etc.

As a parent, you did this to my child, I would have went in, and calmly asked for all charges to be dropped, and have it expunged from his record. I would then tell my kid, don't bring your gadgets to school any more, because there are people in this world who don't understand what you know and have learned, and there will always be people who fear what they don't know or understand. I would also have backed my kid 100%, if they told me they were innocent until proven otherwise.

If I were an IT administrator of a school, and I knew what a pineapple was, yeah, I might talk to the kid to see whats what, but even then, I don't think I would have jumped to conclusions like the teacher and principal have done. Especially as an IT person.

This isn't about a quick buck, although I think if they charged him with something, with the right technical lawyer, the tables would have turned very quickly, its more about the way in which this was handled, what they've done to him, and expecting him to accept suspension for a policy that has not shown he has done anything wrong one way or the other, they are making an example of him.

To me, this is not a light incident. Its the perpetuation of profiling, whether hes 17, or 27 he's been profiled, intimidated and presumed guilty of something he did not do, then told no evidence of wrong doing, but suspending you anyway.

What happens a year from now, he goes to get a job somewhere, that another student from his class already works there. What if they too, are ignorant and not educated enough to know the facts and they go to the boss and say, don't hire him, he hacked our school. What happens then?

My advice to newbi3, finish school and get the hell out of dodge, but don't ever accept something as punishment if you are truly innocent. Anyone telling you otherwise, has never been arrested or had to deal with what you are going through. if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't think others would be so quick to let things go.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

My advice to newbi3, finish school and get the hell out of dodge, but don't ever accept something as punishment if you are truly innocent. Anyone telling you otherwise, has never been arrested or had to deal with what you are going through. if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't think others would be so quick to let things go.

It is as if Digip sees the skies as I do. I have had "run ins" with police. In fact; I spent 3 months in jail because the cops said "Give us what we want and we will drop all charges...". They did drop the charges... right on the desk of the District Attorney.

The beginning of this post claimed it was a Hak5 sticker... not a Pineapple. We all understand why you would get suspended for a Pineapple... but that is the only thing he did wrong.

Again, maybe a little harsh but really any lawyering up at this point is unrealistic. I also think that any attempt to sue over something is petty at best and looking for a quick buck. Come on guys that is ridiculous.

If there was NO PINEAPPLE, I feel he had his rights violated by having a Hak5 sticker on his laptop. Digip is 100 % correct. People fear command line junkies. You make children sound like fire starting demons that leave flaming bags of poop on doorsteps. I would not sue for monetary gains; I would have sued for them defaming me.

Wow, this is a HOT topic. :)

End Note: We are entitled to our opinions :D

[digip]

If the pineapple was in his bag, powered off during math class, then they are demonizing him because of the "potential" to do harm and thats not a good enough reason for me, to suspend someone.

[pasteeywhitecoder]

This thread is making me rage so hard. I hate the stupidity of the education system.

[murder_face]

Again, maybe a little harsh but really any lawyering up at this point is unrealistic. I also think that any attempt to sue over something is petty at best and looking for a quick buck. Come on guys that is ridiculous.

Suing might be the wrong route to go, but I personally feel that something needs to be done. It kind of goes along with all of the rights that are slowly being stripped away from us. If people just keep bending over and taking it a little deeper, next thing you know it's poking you in the back of the throat. I feel that people ESPECIALLY the young ones need to be taught that they don't have to accept their rights being slowly stripped away, and I hate to say it, but hitting institutions in their wallets is pretty much the equivalent to kicking them in the nuts. Money is the only thing anyone understands anymore.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

I feel it is the entire "What are they going to get away with next?" feeling that is a little frightening...

[hexophrenic]

I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but the reality is that minors do NOT enjoy the same rights as adults. There are plenty of rules in school that students have to follow, and I am sure possession a pineapple can loosely fall under one of the rules. It is a right to have a gun, but not in school. It is a right to vote, but not for minors. Should the OP have the device, sure. At school, probably a very bad choice. Think about it, in your day job (assuming it is not in security), and your security team was investigating a rogue access point and found yours, don't you think you might get into trouble? What is different here, other than the student is likely subject to even more restrictions that you are as an employee?

I fully support learning and using tools such as these for the purpose of learning, but doing so outside of your home or direct job, really does require permission of those in authority (boss, school administration, business owner, LE, etc.). Like it or not, once you step outside of your little piece of the world, there will always be rules governed by others that we must follow. Otherwise, what else REALLY differentiates the different shades of grey between white and black (hat hackers)?

[digip]

I am sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but the reality is that minors do NOT enjoy the same rights as adults. There are plenty of rules in school that students have to follow, and I am sure possession a pineapple can loosely fall under one of the rules. It is a right to have a gun, but not in school. It is a right to vote, but not for minors. Should the OP have the device, sure. At school, probably a very bad choice. Think about it, in your day job (assuming it is not in security), and your security team was investigating a rogue access point and found yours, don't you think you might get into trouble? What is different here, other than the student is likely subject to even more restrictions that you are as an employee?

I fully support learning and using tools such as these for the purpose of learning, but doing so outside of your home or direct job, really does require permission of those in authority (boss, school administration, business owner, LE, etc.). Like it or not, once you step outside of your little piece of the world, there will always be rules governed by others that we must follow. Otherwise, what else REALLY differentiates the different shades of grey between white and black (hat hackers)?

They've never even accused him of using the pineapple though. Thats the kicker. They accused him of hacking the teachers facebook. The pineapple, was an afterthought. He had permission to bring the laptop to school, and also to give a demo of the Pineapple in his one class. When he was taken to the office, the Pineapple was in his bag, and he never connected it to the schools network. He's a kid taking tech classes, and certifications at 17 that most people out of school aren't even considering or bothering with. I think had he been some preppy kid, with some khaki pants, a polo and a izod sweater or something to that effect and no stickers on his laptop with the word "hak" on it, he probably would have been left alone.

I know thats as hypocritical as them stereotyping him based on his hak5 sticker, but I'm trying to illustrate the point, they basically went after him because he is the school "hacker" and in their mind, and for them "hacker = criminal", so he must be the responsible one for this due to his laptop and pineapple. I think we have a case of a paranoid teacher, who has no clue the dangers of Facebook in the first place, and his/her accusations against the student are based on fear, uncertainty and doubt about what really happened to their accounts.

I'll leave this thread now, with this video and won't respond any more. The op should do what he feels is best for him, but this problem, is larger than just him alone, and its a mentality of fear and not knowing that you can actually say no to someone if they want to search your bag. He could have refused and said, not without a warrant or my parents present. Minors, have rights too. The law and constitution, does apply to minors as well. Because if they tool this to court and the school wanted to press charges, he most likely, would have been tried as an adult. This idea that we have to be subservient for any reason because someone we assume is in power over us, or an authority over us, is one that has allowed the police and our government to stop us from doing things like taking pictures in public, or video taping police, all of which, when tried in court, sided with the people, not the police or the government, in most cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zQQCSwZwcA&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Edited December 20, 2012 by digip

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

OMG... Digip, I need your address so I can send you those Beers I was talking about! :D

Those are HILARIOUS (I was taught young not to say anything without a lawyer present) ! But scary... eventually we will have to wrap a band around our arms and a bar code on our neck.

The 2nd vid... Notice he first refers to smugglers and dope dealers; not immigrants. Another prohibition that doesn't work. These videos need their own thread and Darren needs to talk about Rights as an American Citizen.

DIGIP = FOR PRESIDENT ... quote

"This idea that we have to be subservient for any reason because someone we assume is in power over us, or an authority over us, is one that has allowed the police and our government to stop us from doing things like taking pictures in public, or video taping police, all of which, when tried in court, sided with the people, not the police or the government, in most cases."

Edited December 21, 2012 by Pwnd2Pwnr