Careful running a TOR exit node!

[barry99705]

http://raided4tor.cryto.net/

Kinda like running an open access point, the feds are knocking down your door for what someone else does with your internet address.

[ewook]

Here's the deal - if you wanna run a exit node for tor, I'd strongly recommend that you implement your own safetynets - as well, a simple example - remove all the porn... Since you get the pure information flow, traffic-restricting this in the sense of "removing not-so-etical-content", I see no problem with it, because it's not part of the tor filosophy to allow access all things in that sense, it's to remove sensorship. Yes yes, one might argue that "well, now you are restricting it!" - not really. You are safekeeping your interests and makes sure that you can without having a cup of paranoia everytime you fire up the exit node, that you servre the tor user a legitime at better internet - protecting both of you ;).

[Radau]

They really need to construct a proper method of handling situations like these. Police shouldn't be able to just take all of your equipment that doesn't even pertain to the investigation because you ran a perfectly legal service offsite. It's possible to determine a relation to TOR right off the bat so the investigators really should have done a better job on gathering intel before showing up at his place. I mean come on, a pocket knife? an Xbox 360? They really need to get it through their heads that an IP address does not mean a person and that hundreds of people can be going through one IP address.

I personally am grateful for all of those who run exit nodes, not because I use them, but because I have numerous friends in the darker places of the world where you disappear if you speak out against the government, and in turn require a method of at least kind of hiding your traffic.

[digip]

People have to understand, that to some degree, we made our own monster, in that of TOR. TOR is great for oppressed people in countries where the government censors and blocks access to freedom of speech, access to world news and communications. But at the same time, our Navy, who in part developed TOR, in some respects probably knew full well what would be in store and how it would get used. Our government has things in place, for example, lets say your site is perfectly legal, never committed a crime. But if they seize your host companies servers in connection with anything, they legally have access to your data and servers too.

Example, dropbox. Cloud based storage. They don't need to ask drop box for access to your account. All they have to do, is charge Dropbox with something, they can view anyones files in the mean time, since it would then fall under their jurisdiction. So they catch wind of a TOR exit node that passed child porn, most likely something they themselves put out there to catch pedophiles(they've done it numerous times in the past), and they want to catch the end users, they don't go after the end user, they seize the exit node, take your stuff, and then turn it all back on at their site, and just collect the illicit users, using your boxen as Mr. Honeypot.

Is it right? No. Is it fair, no. Is it legal? Yes, and that in part is why we have to work with people like the EFF to help protect us from being accessories in crimes we have no control over. You freely let anyone use your IP space to do whatever you want, you in part take on some responsibility for what is transfered over that network, and child porn, while you may have no knowledge of the transmitted data, is in part something they will come after you for, regardless. But there in lies the catch 22, how do you know, someone didn't intentionally do this over your exit node, to come after you. Much of TOR comes back as unknown country, and non traceable in some parts of the world, depending on how you set it up, but if you are allowing TOR from your home ISP, without running it over a VPN or Additional Tunnel services, your IP still is your IP. The user is much safer since the trail of bits leads back to your exit node, but if you don't take steps to encrypt and tunnel the TOR traffic in general, then your home IP is the first place they will go to get the data they want.

Too many people abuse TOR, and child porn, while horrible and exploitive in nature, is the least of the governments worries with respect to accessing peoples data. Its just one method they can use to take over your network and use it to monitor whatever they want coming down the pipeline.

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

It is how people use it and abuse it. Child Porn is a very serious and dangerous culture. It is actually considered a black market... sick shit and a sick society...

On the other hand; TOR is fantastic if you don't like having all of your info stolen and distributed across servers world wide. I like my privacy for the most part and FB relies on my "likes" to conduct its' big business practices... like it or not, FB is seriously pwnd by TOR... I push teh like button on that...

Edited December 5, 2012 by Pwnd2Pwnr

[barry99705]

Here's the deal - if you wanna run a exit node for tor, I'd strongly recommend that you implement your own safetynets - as well, a simple example - remove all the porn... Since you get the pure information flow, traffic-restricting this in the sense of "removing not-so-etical-content", I see no problem with it, because it's not part of the tor filosophy to allow access all things in that sense, it's to remove sensorship. Yes yes, one might argue that "well, now you are restricting it!" - not really. You are safekeeping your interests and makes sure that you can without having a cup of paranoia everytime you fire up the exit node, that you servre the tor user a legitime at better internet - protecting both of you ;).

Okay, so you're blocking "porn". So what if someone happens to send threatening email to the president through your node? Same shit is going to happen.

[digip]

Found this article interesting. Botnets have been using TOR for years, but just another reason people should be aware of what they install and download to their computers that may be in fact already part of a botnet and not even know it - "..all the things.." https://community.ra...ght-from-reddit

Edited December 7, 2012 by digip

[whitehat]

The government just needs to make a decision on if they are going to allow it or not, instead of randomly punishing exit node operators. I haven't followed all the links in this thread, but it sounds like they are allowing operation and use of Tor, but choosing random volunteers in the project and ruining their lives because the government can't solve the paradox of

(i) wanting the Internet to retain an anonymous component for the larger good of the world, while

(ii) simultaneously wanting to rule with an iron fist and have 100% surveillance.

They (or we) want to have the cake and eat it too.

I don't really know much about any specific anonymity project (and with what little I know I'd prefer i2p over Tor by a thin margin). however the whole Internet used to be more anonymous, before Sauron's eye got so big and before the internet became infested with a vast ocean of lamers (thanks AOL, Yahoo!, Google, and FaceBook). Freedom to express yourself anonymously and to develop an online identity independent of your normal life is a large part of what brought the Internet to the prominence that it enjoys today. It's supposed to be that way and that's what sparked an international anti-oppressor revolution in the Arab world. If American had chosen to be the model of online freedom, privacy, and limited regulation, then China, North Korea, and much more of the Arab world would have seen that and taken advantage of it, potentially leading to world peace, prosperity and freedom.

Bad guys can take advantage of anonymity too, obviously. That's why traditional intelligence and security forces should have to stay vigilant and heighten their skills at traditional police work, instead of perverting and poisoning what's left of the Internet in search of a lazy way to spy and bully the citizen population.

Edited December 7, 2012 by whitehat

[Pwnd2Pwnr]

In all seriousness... This is exactly why there are "Zero Tolerance" laws for schools across the US. "One bad apple can spoil the bunch."

TOR is the epitome of Good/Evil, Yin/Yang, etc.

Great power comes great responsibility. My profile states, "Anything that can be explained with stupidity should not be attempted." This, I feel, is exactly where we are left.

It is stupid to threaten another man. It is stupid to promote child porn. It is stupid to cause exit nodes to get there equipment stolen from State-Federal level law enforcement agencies.

I guess, for the Faith oriented, that God will sort em out. For the rest; they hope that justice gets served for those whom are affected. I still love TOR, but I do not abuse privileges (one of the few, probably).

Sorry for the highlight... I need coffee...

[Infiltrator]

It's very simple, if you don't want to pay for someone's illegal doing, don't run your computer as a TOR exit relay. Either use it as bridge or relay node, but never as an exit node.

Tor is safe to use, but you must use it with caution and always take extra care when using it.

[logicalconfusion]

Onion routing was meant for free speech, the 1st amendment. There are places in world where amendments don't exist. I don't think the developers of TOR intended to host porno or death threats to Obama. It would be great if they made it text only - like lynx, to support encryption methods already in use.

[Xeon]

If you plan to run an exit node from anywhere it's best to contact your ISP and see what their policy says about it. You might find they block certain ports (e.g. 9001) which Tor uses by default or they may disconnect you for ToS violation. Assuming they are unconcerned you can then set up and hope the cops don't show up. Here in the UK there was some interest by law enforcement but no raids that I know of. Australia, Austria and Germany have seen raids on exit node operators.

I have run a Tor relay (non-exit node) for a couple of years and my ISP hasn't cared (as far as I know). If you have a server then running an exit node is a great thing to do if you don't mind the possibility of a bit of hassle and if you want to avoid any kind of hassle then I would urge you to run a relay (or many). Given that all traffic is encrypted and you can run it over port 443 it is a little hard to identify as Tor and I'm sure most ISPs couldn't care less.

Warning note: the default Tor config is set up to work as an relay AND exit node. Just change the Exit Policy to REJECT *.* in torrc file to only relay traffic.

[Infiltrator]

If you plan to run an exit node from anywhere it's best to contact your ISP and see what their policy says about it. You might find they block certain ports (e.g. 9001) which Tor uses by default or they may disconnect you for ToS violation. Assuming they are unconcerned you can then set up and hope the cops don't show up. Here in the UK there was some interest by law enforcement but no raids that I know of. Australia, Austria and Germany have seen raids on exit node operators.

I have run a Tor relay (non-exit node) for a couple of years and my ISP hasn't cared (as far as I know). If you have a server then running an exit node is a great thing to do if you don't mind the possibility of a bit of hassle and if you want to avoid any kind of hassle then I would urge you to run a relay (or many). Given that all traffic is encrypted and you can run it over port 443 it is a little hard to identify as Tor and I'm sure most ISPs couldn't care less.

Warning note: the default Tor config is set up to work as an relay AND exit node. Just change the Exit Policy to REJECT *.* in torrc file to only relay traffic.

You could use a bridge if your ISP is blocking those ports. Bridges uses port 443, which by default shouldn't be blocked

[Sitwon]

I am not sympathetic to the child porn argument. I do not believe that possession of child porn should be considered a felony.

I understand heaping heavy punishments on people who create or profit from child porn, or any other despicable exploitation of minors, however it should never be illegal to have some magic sequence of bits stored on your hard drive or passing through your network card. The way we criminalize and deal with possession of child porn in the USA is dangerous to our personal liberties, our constitutional rights, and may even be counter-productive with regard to actually protecting children from abuse.

[barry99705]

I am not sympathetic to the child porn argument. I do not believe that possession of child porn should be considered a felony.

I understand heaping heavy punishments on people who create or profit from child porn, or any other despicable exploitation of minors, however it should never be illegal to have some magic sequence of bits stored on your hard drive or passing through your network card. The way we criminalize and deal with possession of child porn in the USA is dangerous to our personal liberties, our constitutional rights, and may even be counter-productive with regard to actually protecting children from abuse.

I'm not saying it's illegal, or should be illegal to run an exit node, I think tor is a cool idea. The problem lies with the fact that someone can, and most likely will do something stupid with your exit node. I'm sure eventually the police will return your stuff, it's just a matter of them going through all of it with a fine toothed comb looking for the crap that was spewing from your external ip address.

[digip]

I'm not saying it's illegal, or should be illegal to run an exit node, I think tor is a cool idea. The problem lies with the fact that someone can, and most likely will do something stupid with your exit node. I'm sure eventually the police will return your stuff, it's just a matter of them going through all of it with a fine toothed comb looking for the crap that was spewing from your external ip address.

Not to mention anything they find can and will be used against you in a court of law, whether its "hacking paraphernalia" or not, if you have anything on there regardless, once they take it, they can pin anything they want on you, with or without reason. As much as I love my country I truly HATE with a capital FUCKING hate, the police state mentality that we have become in the USA. From the formation of Homeland Security to the Patriot Act, to the secret FISA courts, drone hits on Americans being assassinated without trial or due process, we live in a time and place that is sad for our children to grow up in, and if things don't change, it will not only get worst, our children will become conditioned to it to the point that they think this is normal behavior. FISA and its original intentions, are now domestic spying at its finest, because we the people, are now the enemies of the state.

Edited January 19, 2013 by digip

[Mr-Protocol]

Not to mention anything they find can and will be used against you in a court of law, whether its "hacking paraphernalia" or not, if you have anything on there regardless, once they take it, they can pin anything they want on you, with or without reason. As much as I love my country I truly HATE with a capital FUCKING hate, the police state mentality that we have become in the USA. From the formation of Homeland Security to the Patriot Act, to the secret FISA courts, drone hits on Americans being assassinated without trial or due process, we live in a time and place that is sad for our children to grow up in, and if things don't change, it will not only get worst, our children will become conditioned to it to the point that they think this is normal behavior. FISA and its original intentions, are now domestic spying at its finest, because we the people, are now the enemies of the state.

They are limited by the search warrant. If they get a warrant for say your Tor exit node, and find child porn, they will get a warrant for the child porn and nail you to the wall.

[Xeon]

They are limited by the search warrant. If they get a warrant for say your Tor exit node, and find child porn, they will get a warrant for the child porn and nail you to the wall.

Traffic is encrypted as it passes through your node so nobody can view it. If you are an exit node you can of course sniff the interface (a la NSA) and see the traffic but law enforcement is aware of Tor and how it works. Watch Jake Appelbaum and Roger Dingledine at CCC kongress (29C3 i think) and they explain that because all tor exit nodes are known to the network they already have a list of exit nodes and can look it up before knocking down a door. Another point they make is that failure of law enforcement to check if they person is running an exit node could in fact work against them in court, though I really wouldnt want to be the test case...

As for the whole child porn argument, I think the technology is fundamentally awesome and necessary in the current police-excessive world, not to mention it fucks nicely with google and facebook market profiling. Of course people will abuse the technology but it isn't the tech that is bad, to massively simplify it, it's bad people using tech. Also in response to a previous post, I would imagine the fact that someone had CP on their computer would imply that person was complicit in the sexual abuse of that child, which is deplorable in my opinion. I would point out however I am not a lawyer and I hope much smarter people than me work in the judiciary...

[Sitwon]

As for the whole child porn argument, I think the technology is fundamentally awesome and necessary in the current police-excessive world, not to mention it fucks nicely with google and facebook market profiling. Of course people will abuse the technology but it isn't the tech that is bad, to massively simplify it, it's bad people using tech. Also in response to a previous post, I would imagine the fact that someone had CP on their computer would imply that person was complicit in the sexual abuse of that child, which is deplorable in my opinion. I would point out however I am not a lawyer and I hope much smarter people than me work in the judiciary...

Think about it carefully. If it were true that someone with CP on their computer was automatically complicit in the sexual abuse of the child or children depicted, then how come we don't have similar laws to censor images of other sorts of crimes?

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict the use of illegal substances.

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict rape (as long as all parties are above 18 years of age).

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict murder, even violent murder.

There is no law against possession of images or videos which would be characterized as "snuff porn".

I have no problem with prosecution of anyone who participated, conspired, or profited from the exploitation of minors. However, simply possessing a file on your hard drive, a coincidental series of ones and zeros, should NEVER be illegal. Possession of the file is not proof that the person who owns the hard drive had anything to do with the crime depicted by the image (unless it actually shows them committing the crime).

[Mr-Protocol]

I think your view of laws against having videos regardless of age are off.

[Drei_Drachen]

Think about it carefully. If it were true that someone with CP on their computer was automatically complicit in the sexual abuse of the child or children depicted, then how come we don't have similar laws to censor images of other sorts of crimes?

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict the use of illegal substances.

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict rape (as long as all parties are above 18 years of age).

There is no law against possession of images or videos which depict murder, even violent murder.

There is no law against possession of images or videos which would be characterized as "snuff porn".

I have no problem with prosecution of anyone who participated, conspired, or profited from the exploitation of minors. However, simply possessing a file on your hard drive, a coincidental series of ones and zeros, should NEVER be illegal. Possession of the file is not proof that the person who owns the hard drive had anything to do with the crime depicted by the image (unless it actually shows them committing the crime).

Simply having the material on your computer does not make you an accessory to the crime being committed with the child. It does however make you guilty of a separate crime altogether. Still a felony.

[Sitwon]

Simply having the material on your computer does not make you an accessory to the crime being committed with the child. It does however make you guilty of a separate crime altogether. Still a felony.

That's my point. What crime are you guilty of, and why is it a crime?

In what kind of society should it ever be a crime simply to be in possession of some information?

[Mr-Protocol]

That's my point. What crime are you guilty of, and why is it a crime?

In what kind of society should it ever be a crime simply to be in possession of some information?

It's against the law to possess most, if not all, the things you listed in the previous post, not really up for any debate. Ask a lawyer why it's a crime. Or even local PD, they will be happy to explain it to you.

[Xeon]

In the UK we do have laws regarding the photographic depiction of sexual violence.

I cant speak as to why possession of certain images in criminal but photographs of a crime is evidence of that crime and withholding it from authorities is a crime so either way you get busted.

[Sitwon]

It's against the law to possess most, if not all, the things you listed in the previous post, not really up for any debate. Ask a lawyer why it's a crime. Or even local PD, they will be happy to explain it to you.

No, it isn't against the law to possess pictures or videos of a murder or of rape. Only child porn, it's treated as a special case. This is a problem which has been acknowledges by members of the EFF.

Even being falsely accused of involvement with child pornography can end a persons career and ruin their life. This is a big stick that both corporations and governments wave around to silence viewpoints they don't like. I've watched it happen in Washington DC and the surrounding suburbs. These exceptional laws on child pornography are being used to actively restrict First Amendment rights.