Jump to content

VaKo

Dedicated Members
  • Posts

    7,713
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    2

Posts posted by VaKo

  1. Did you just compare The Venus Project to Nazi's? Or because Zeitgeist is a German word?

    Not to defend the Nazi case, but Hitler youth were geniuses smile.gif (and shows that we have the potential)

    But again, it's not about controlling people, people do what they want. We just assume (assumptions based on scientific facts known to this day) that the behavior of people reflects the environment they live in.

    So again, it's not about making people think a certain way, we're only talking about changing the system, not the people.

    I'm not sure how I can make myself clear, I've repeated this a few times now..

    No, I'm comparing it to the Soviet system. Which tried to do exactly what you wanting to do, which is educate people to think in the correct way, a better way. Your basing far to much on assumptions, and things you suspect to be true. And its is way more likely that you will be wrong than that you are correct. How much damage do you want to cause by replacing everything with yet another tightly controlled thought experiment based on very shaky ground?

    Again, you misunderstood things.

    There is no one that will decide what is irrelevant or not.

    Irrelevant stuff will phase out on it's own and people will have the time to explore their own passions and ideas.

    You make me seem like an arrogant prick, please don't bash me just because you don't agree. I like to discuss this and want to hear your opinions/ideas/concerns.

    I'm not all-knowing and will never be that, on the contrary, I will never consider myself an intelligent person. Never.

    The point I can make here is this:

    Lasers, Linux, other cool inventions and art have mostly been created in recreational states. Side projects that didn't get any funding and thus started as self-funded hobbies are part of what makes this society so successful.

    Now, imagine a world where only such projects existed. (not because someone said so or made you to, but because the profit motive doesn't exist anymore)

    These are for me the perfect examples that promotes a system like The Venus Project proposes, people would still create things, they wouldn't get lazy, no, they would finally have the time and possibility to make those discoveries.

    All people are scientists.

    No, all people are not scientists. People are artists, engineers, traders, buisnessmen, farmers, teachers etc. All people are not the equal, the have different talents, abilities, inteligence levels, aptitudes and view points. You cannot design a system to work for all people.

    As for the inventions that came from recreational ideas, they all got developed by commerical interests. Linux is mostly written by employees of big tech firms these days, not bedroom coders. If you take away the efforts of big firms, Linux would be in a very poor state today.

    As for bashing you, you should realize that I am not attacking you personally, just your argument.

    Yes, there are many transition plans, but none definitive, of course, as we are a movement of change and the ideas of tomorrow might not be the same as those of today. We are a movement of education, in this phase, and want to make people aware that 'something else' is possible. It doesn't necessarily has to be The Venus Project, just something better than what we have. Unless you think this system doesn't need any improvements or can't be replaced with something better, then our discussion can end now.

    The system we have now is flawed, but then it has produced the most prosporus, advanced society in history, and in a very short period of time. The resources we have aquired, rightly or wrongly, have enabled us to sustain a very rapid period of growth. In my understanding, we need to return to capitalism, not a state sponsered banking system.

    How can one rule a system like the one proposed by The Venus Project?

    It's impossible to rule and there is nothing to gain by ruling it.

    If they use it for themselves, why not? If someone starts a system like this on their own, they will have much difficulty. As the world is "crumbling down", people will see this system and will want to live there. But it will not be able to sustain the worlds population.

    What we propose is a world wide system change, so either we benefit everyone or it doesn't happen. That's the only way it could work. (with what we know today...)

    It's no utopia, I know it seems that way because it's so much better.

    Rest assure, it will have problems, just far less.

    The world is not crumbling down, the current problems we have are yet another minor blip, like the Great Depression of the 30's. Less than 30 years later we went to the moon. Globally life expectancy is up, infant mortality is down, people have more food, your less likely to die violently, you have access to far more information, your far more mobile, you have more oppuruity and happiness is up.

    As for ruling the movement, leaders will arise in any system, because some people have a talent for it and selforganization is an instinctive behaviour of humans, irrespective of culture. I've seen it often before, people always become leaders and the leaders eventually start to see themselves as different to the people they lead, and eventually start to treat themselves differently. It happens everywhere from tribal viliages to internet communities.

    But that's why I started this topic, to discuss with you all this new system, how it can be improved, and to spread the word it is possible to live in a world that is better than this one.

    The current "plan" is to spread awareness and create critical mass.

    About actually building; it's shown in the movie. There's no point on trying to patch up the flawed system. It would be far more efficient (and resource friendly) to start from scratch.

    No it wouldn't be, we already have thousands of years of infrastructure, culture and ideologies that all have significant momentum, it would be a waste of resources to start again, and far more efficient to alter the trajectory of what we have.

  2. I used to be like that. Eventually I decided that given I was running Windows, and the places on the net I spent my time on, it was probally a good idea given that its not even like an AV client uses any significant resources these days. Its like condoms, if your in a monogamous, safe trusting relationship then you can forgo them, but if your not, its stupid not to use them.

    As for free AV clients of merit, MS Security Essentials or AntiVir, both of these I like.

  3. If your going to take this up as a "healthy" alternative to smoking, for the love of all things holy make sure your getting it from a good source. Fags might be full of shit, (I smoke roll-ups myself, which are marginally better IMHO), but the market for these things is completely unregulated and for every firm that makes these things with nothing but love for the customer, there a 100 dodgey fuck-holes in a china that couldn't care less if you went about your day puffing away on the contents of a lead smelting plants waste bin.

    P.S. We all know smoking is fucking dumb, no matter how much we like to rationalize it. I need to quit, despite loving them.

  4. There is a huge problem with your arguments. Firstly, your coming from a position where you base your entire premise on scientific Facts, when in actuality the jury is still out on most if not all of the behavioural and neuro-psychological premiss your basing your ideas on. Your making the same mistakes that have been made before, that you know how people should think and behave, and if only everyone did what they were supposed to do and acted in the right way, only then would things work. And your making the mistakes in thinking that if you control people, and make them think in the correct way then Great Things will be achieved. I've seen this shit before, friends have lived through it, relatives died because of it. It always ends in the same way, when people don't think correctly, and cause problems, it ends in blood. It ends with troops opening fire on civilians while the scared leaders of the movement cower inside some bunker.

    You talk about not wasting effort on irrelevant inventions, irrelevant ideas, irrelevant processes, but who decides what is irrelevant? The laser was invented, and no one had any idea what you were supposed to do with it. Linux started as a derided school project, mocked by Proper UNIX. Computers and eventually the Internet were called pointless toys. How many ideas, inventions, pieces of art, music, plays, bits of research are you willing to sacrifice because you didn't have the foresight to see the value in something? Again, your so sure of yourself, that your ideas are the right ones, you can't see that you will be wrong about important things.

    You talk about this ideal society, but you have no idea how we are supposed to get there, or how its supposed to be run. How do you deal with power struggles, the inevitable politics of any society, people who disagree, people who want to fight you? People who want to take what you have and use it for themselves? And how do you take what we have today, and build your utopia? You will have answers for all these questions, and they will inevitable lead back to the same talking points, that once you can control how people think you can stop these negative behaviours, reinforce the desired behaviours and use them to build a world you want. Its all destination, no journey.

    This is nothing more than a safe fantasy ideology, a mish-mash of communist and socialist ideas, with the idea that technology and controlling how people think will make for a better world, all wrapped up in the same values as a cult. And the only way you would every create and maintain such a system is through force and controlling people. You may think your doing what is best for the human race, that if only you had your chance then everything would be better. But the price you want is far to high.

    As for what I suggest? That we continue to thrive in chaos, like we have done for the last 10000 years. Things might not be perfect, and they never will be, but as I've said before, we are living in the best time to be alive. We have a quality of life no one before us could have imagined, technology that would have been a dream a mere generation ago (and the rantings of a mad-man a generation before that), life expectancy is the highest its ever been. Chaos makes us focus on the next little step, in a perpetual effort to do a little better than last time, and the cumulative effect of this is far beyond anything the rantings of a cult with a very fixed idea of the ideal could ever possibly achieve. Humans are at our best when we use our hate and discontent to good effect.

  5. Really mods? I'm surprised this thread and the other hasn't been locked.

    I don't read every thread and I suspect the other mods don't either. If you think we should be looking at something, use the "report to moderator" button to tell us about it. I personally don't like locking threads so I rarely do it unless there is a blatant cluster fuck in progress.

  6. I'm afraid I'm all for the government providing healthcare for all, paid for by all (a la National Insurance paying for the NHS in the UK). But I have no issue with paying for private healthcare in addition to this if you want (I have private dental, because although I have access to NHS dental, I like the service the private sector offers). What I don't do is bitch about paying for both, because someone who can't afford private dental could probally use my unused funding.

    As for government philanthropy, no, but government planning and funding for things like telecomms, power, water, public transport infra and welfare, education and healthcare. Yes. These are essential services that shouldn't be profit driven, Governments should use tax money to build nations that have efficient infrastructure that is run for the benefit of the nation (day-to-day operational stuff can be outsourced though). That way the private sector has a high quality work force, with high quality infrastructure to build upon. Business thrives, effort is rewarded, people who need help get help, not handouts.

  7. LOL

    No, I'm just someone who believes that you need to be fiscally conservative, socially progressive and above all pragmatic. The free market and capitalism can be good, if you invest the profits back into progressive social and economic polices, education, infrastructure and development. I want a world where hard work gets you something, where thinking "I can do it better" is encouraged, but not one where your next thought is "I deserve a Vertu phone and an infinity pool". Greed is good, but only if your end goal is something more than sitting on a pile of money paying poor people to roll in the mud for your own amusement. We need to encourage philanthropy, be less "individual" and short term-ist.

    And yes, I know the elites of the world are fucking over the poorer nations, but I also realize that I'm one of them. My attitude is just that we should use our privilege and power to further the species as a whole, because a post scarcity society isn't going to arise from anywhere else.

  8. I've got a copy setup somewhere, it comes pre-setup with the file server roles that Server 2008 has, but other than that its Server 2008 tweaked to run on OTS file servers. The only really interesting additions are SIS (Single instance Storage) and iSCSI target support. I honestly don't know why SIS hasn't made it into 2008 R2 by default, but you can install it with "start /wait ocsetup.exe SIS-Limited /quiet /norestart". iSCSI target support is pretty neat though. Other than that, nothing exciting, I'd rather use 2008 R2 myself with SIS support as it uses less resources.

  9. Do you really think it's this human animal that needs evolution?

    Or maybe it's just what shapes this animal's behavior; the social system; that needs to evolve :)

    As far as humans are concerned, it is simply the lack of resources we have that causes a lot of wars. Even Native American tribes, who are considered to be pure and simple in romantic terms, had loads of wars over resources. As soon as we reach a point where our supply of resources doesn't match our demand, we start looking around for someone to trade with, or if we are strong enough, someone to take it from. This might be done with guns, or it might be done with financial methods to coerce trade in our advantage. You can't evolve out of that, other than to reach and enforce an equilibrium with our environment, but that basically stunts development massively as most if not all of our technology is developed to improve our lives by increasing available resources, or to make processes easier and freeing up time & the workforce for other tasks (like art or science). If everyone is just focused on providing enough to survive, no one desires more or better.

    Like Jacque Fresco (of TVP) likes to say: We are not civilized yet.

    Bullshit, the mere fact that your neighbours haven't smashed your skull in to take your stuff is evidence this is wrong.

    This social system (and it's inhabitants) isn't aware of the current state of technology and doesn't have the money to incorporate it so these animals living in the system can adjust to it.

    I'm not sure what your trying to say here. We've incorporated the current state of technology into our lives quite well, and continue to do so year on year. But as I've said, you couldn't provide the same quality of life to everyone on the planet without some areas having a massive reduction in quality of life. We can't feed everyone with the technology we have, we can't even provide drinking water. Are you ready to give up your computer, your TV, your non-essential stuff and eat a more restricted diet?

    Do you agree with me that money paralyzes crucial components that make up our system and way of life?

    No, As I've said previously, your thinking like a banker, you think money is actually something. Its not, its a way of rationing resources, ideally based upon merit i.e. you work harder than your brother, train to do a more complicated job, so you should probably get more for your effort than he does. Same extends to a moneyless tribal situation, if you gather more berrys than your neighbours, your going to have more to eat. Your neighbours could try to gather the same amount, but if you have an extra daughter your always going to win. However, if they are better at hunting than you (2 sons vs 1 son and 2 daughters), then they might say, we'll catch the deer, and trade you for the berrys. And you have the basis for a monetary system forming. The only way to avoid this is to mandate that everyone pools everything in the tribe, and its equally divided between everyone. But this only works if everyone puts in the same level of effort as they did previously, but without the reward of extra stuff for there hard work. So people will put in a minimal level of effort and thus the tribe as a whole suffers.

    The problem at the moment is that people think money is the end goal, and this is why we're having problems. We need to focus capitalism back onto society and use the money/resources to do things, rather than sticking it in a pile and looking at it.

  10. Agreed yet with all this technology we seem to have the same problems and same debates. With all this technology it still seems humans make the same mistakes.

    We still fight wars over religion.

    We still fight wars over money.

    We try the same things and expect different results

    We trust the government, private companies, lobbyist, unions, etc etc to help us and look out for are best interests and then realize they have their own agenda (just think of the last 4 presidents (the 2 Bushes, Clinton, and Obama) )

    Because our technology is evolving faster than we are currently. People act like the Great War was a long time ago, but there are still people alive today who lived through it. We are still essentially the same animals who were impressed by indoor plumbing, and we've had that for 2000 years.

  11. But consider this:

    Even though what you are saying may be a proof that technology is indeed not paralyzed, the point really is that today we could've been much further than where we are.

    You can't deny that the advances in technology are based on how much money there is.

    And science budgets aren't really that big -> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/brian_co..._explorers.html

    Another thing to consider are patents.

    Those advances in technology or medical science are being restricted from use or further exploration by others and thus paralyzes the potential advances that could've been done.

    In the same line as patents, we have the private corporations that need to keep their research and data safe so no one else can use it, else they would loose their competitive edge.

    Patents are in dispute at the moment, its obvious to most people that the system needs to be reformed, and it will be. Simply because people are starting to ignore patents.

    It is also worth considering that the human races most prolific rate of creation has been in the last century. And claims that we could have been much further ahead are complicated to prove.

    --> A closer to my bed show example could be this: (I'm not sure if companies are still doing this today, but I remember they once were) How technology is paralyzed for a person: When you buy a GFX card (or cpu), but you don't have the money to buy the latest and best one, you buy a model that is cheaper and thus does not have the same performance. What you actually bought is in fact the best one but crippled so you can only have the performance you have the money for. It's cheaper to use the same assembly lines and just modify 1 thing at the end of it to make that difference (by lasercutting bridges, modified firmware, removing a chip).

    Usually its more complicated that this, a lot of the time a chip that passes QA at 50% can't be sold as the 9000 series, but with a little firmware magic you can sell what would otherwise be a defective product as a lower spec'd product.

    Then you should watch this:

    The bigger the explosion, the more people have died.

    Yes, and the European Civil War had the most deaths. But otherwise we've been ok since then war wise. However, as we start seriously competing for resources (because the planet doesn't have enough), we'll see some more big wars in the next century. It will be interesting to see if the current aversion to collateral damage continues (yes, there is one. Where previously we'd have used carpet bombing or burnt a city to the ground (Dresden) we now prefer to use smart munitions.

    I don't really think that we have technology beyond our resources, I think we have the technology to intelligently manage our resources, but it cost too much money to take this into consideration.

    I'm curious as to how much energy and pollution it "needs" to create 1 iPhone, I possible wouldn't even want an iPhone if I knew this.

    We could create an iPhone that is made in such a way that it is easier to recycle, or could be upgraded easily, but none of this is done because the profit per phone needs to be kept at a maximum and iPhones will aways need to be obsolete every x amount of time so a new one can be sold.

    We don't have enough resources. Full stop. This isn't a case of management, its a lack of resources. We have 6.5 billion people on the planet, and that number isn't getting any smaller. Unless we have a major war its going to double by 2050. We can't feed that many people. And there is no hope in hell of being able to provide everyone with an iPhone, even if we recycle (which requires energy, another thing we don't have enough of currently).

    Industry as you know it today can't afford to care about the ecological of ethical aspects. With the profit motive, you need to find ways to keep loses at a minimum.

    Even if it is illegal; if the profit margin is higher than the penalty fee for dumping waste water, then it would make sense to just keep dumping. I would too with this state of mind.

    This is competing with food, and hungry people will win this argument. Even China, who traditionally have disagreed with nature, are starting to realize that a profitable lead smelting plant is worth less than the cost of dealing with contaminated food.

    About meat: we have the technology to grow it, not by killing and pollution (did you know that cows actually have a heavy impact on our ecological footprint? a huge impact even).

    http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_gro...ing_tissue.html

    Yeah, they have been trying to make that work for years now, its still not comerically viable and isn't as good as the real stuff. I hope they figure it out soon though.

    If only we had the money to further this development.

    Imagine if an alien would come down to earth and ask:

    Alien:Hello human, I have one question for you. It seems we both exist 2000 years (say..) but why are you not as advanced as us?

    Human:We don't have the money.

    Alien:Sorry, I actually have a second question: What is money?

    Human:Money is something we need to pay for researchers, buy resources, so we can make those advances.

    Alien:I don't understand, why wouldn't your advanced state be dependent on the resources you have on this planet?

    Human:Because it is owned by someone or some company, and if you want a piece, you need to pay for it.

    Alien:Why you would do this to yourselves, I don't understand.

    This is very naive, and your making the exact same mistake as the bankers made recently, by thinking that money is something in it own right. Money is just a rationing system, nothing more, nothing less. Unless your money is invested in growth, or used to buy resources its just numbers in a HDD.

    And it would probally go down like this:

    Alien: Hello human, I have one question for you. It seems we both exist 2000 years (say..) but why are you not as advanced as us?

    Human: We would need to examine the differences in geopolitics, resource distribution, population dynamics and neuro-psychology to answer that question, but fuck that for the moment, tell us about that star drive of yours? What can we give you so we can build our own?

    Alien: Umm... water is something we need, and foreign art always sells well back home.

    Human: OK, how much water do you want? And here is a list of galleries we can take a look at.

    Alien: More than we can carry... a say 50 Million litres?

    Human: OK, here is a bit of paper saying IOU 50 million litres, and in exchange we want free access to your technical data banks.

    <years pass>

    Alien 2: Hi, we have a bit of paper here that says we can collect 10 Million litres of water and 5 arts, we got it off the first aliens you met in exchange for a power plant design.

    Until we can create as many resources as we need (i.e. post-scarcity) we going to need to rely on a resource management system, i.e. a form of money.

    If you're not controlled, then you should be truly free.

    I wonder how many people would agree with your statement :)

    Anyone who has worked in a large organization understands exactly how much control there is.

    Yes, there is hope, of course, like the ideas proposed =)

    TBH, in the first video posted, the ideas proposed by that strange man towards the end are crap. Maglev systems are cool, but building one from the US to China would be a project many orders of magnitude more complicated and expensive (in terms of resources) than the Manhattan project. Running it would be even more expensive. We just don't have the materials technology or power generation systems required to do it yet. What we can do is design more fuel efficient planes which pollute far less and fly them around at half the cost of the current planes.

  12. A few things that are important to remember:

    In the 1st world, we have the highest standard of life the human species has ever seen.

    The 1st world is expanding to places like China, India, Brazil, etc.

    The technology the average person can purchase or access today is beyond anything a goverment could purchase when I was born. (a $500 GPU is more powerful than the fastest super computer from 1998, and faster than the top 500 in 1993)

    We have access to more information than every ancestor we have combined.

    My cell phone is more powerful than the desktop computer I owned a decade a go.

    We can talk to far more people than ever before, with real time global communication systems, giving rise to new ways of thinking (FOSS anyone?), collaboration and decision making.

    (But this video says "technology is constantly paralysed")

    None of the corpratocracy stuff mentioned is new, just look at the East India Company or any of the old world monarchs. Its tired and played out. We're just nicer about it then we used to be, and where we once would sack a city, kill every male and rape every female, then salt the fields, we just move numbers around. The biggest problem we faces as a species is that we have technology beyond our resources, we can make iPhones, but it would be impossible to make enough of them to give everyone on the planet an iPhone. Same goes for cars, life support machines, advanced drugs, and most importantly food (people wanting the same level of meat in there diet as 1st world nations is already a problem in). This is the burden of a scarcity based society. If everyone was granted resources equally our quality of life would be shit. Until then, money acts as a complicated way of rationing resources, nothing more. All these systems of running our societies rise and fall, and capitalism will do to.

    And neither is anyone controlling us, they might try. But anyone who has worked in a large organization will understand that planning is 1/10th, reacting to plans that didn't work is 9/10ths.

    But, there is hope. The human species marches on, progress ever beckoning. If we want to get to the promised land, we're going to have to endure the harsh reality of scarcity. The free market, with people trying to out do each other, is the fastest way we have to encourage this growth.

  13. Q4 2010, H1 2011... There will be a truck load of tablets released in this period, everything from $100 Chinese tinker toys running Android/WinCE to $1000 devices running Windows 7. Basically when the iPad was released, everyone started designing there own competitors, so wait until they are out.

  14. So something something about problems in this social system..

    Ok, your an artist, I also did a fine art degree. Think of it in the same terms as pitching a project to your audience. This is about x, and this 2 hour video will explain how x relates to y and z.

×
×
  • Create New...