skynetbbs Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Gerard, As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Anything else you would like to call us liars about? They don't suggest any "men in the middle" attack or "honeypot" project? Imho it's not a "hacker" that uses legal devices to get peoples visa card's; wow account info... this is not a "hacker"... this is a "cracker"! Are you guys turning into BlackHat hackers now? Joined the Dark Side? There are more projects out there that can be featured... Currently the 3 main developers of Openwrt are "hacking" the Fonera 2.0 ... and not to create honeypots! I want to be able trust the FON_FREE_INTERNET signals of people wanting to share their internet with the wifi community... not think they are trying to get my Visa card info... now I certainly need to use a vpn connection and have a worse/less performant signal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Gerling Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Owned? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skynetbbs Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 We don't have the infrastructure here to offer free internet. At the same time, there are a large number of people that actually work for La Fonera that support what we're doing with it, and encourage people to find all kinds of different uses for their devices, internet sharing or not, and in turn they sent us a fairly large shipment of devices so that we can do all kinds of things with them. Matt Can you please explain why your infrastructure doesn't allow you to offer "free internet"? Even Dvorak has shared his wifi. And FON is trying to improve the WiFi industry... now it will be even more difficult to let people trust an unencrypted hotspot signal to use it without having reasons of people sniffing their traffic. (yeah they should use https) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swathe Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Can we buy your fons? You could autograph it, Hak5 it, and send it to me pl0x? How about $40 USD? Nice idea gimme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skynetbbs Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Nice idea gimme! Sure "rebranding" them is cewl! IF you "share" your wifi be sure to add the hak5.org to your "free url" so others can access hak5.org and put their logo as your avatar :-) Please tell us where to find your active Hak5 router on maps.fon.com :-) others that did this can be found on www.dd-wrt.org with the DD-Wrt logo on their La Fonera :-) Others just gave it a nice Black or Shiny Blue polish :-) Pimped up La Foneras :-) Also the La Fontennas have been shown "back to back" on the FON Biron Meshing project; or at the end of a pvc tube covering a whole street or on a pvc stick high above a roof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deveant Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 but its kinda like the blender guy on youtube when it all comes down to it. Sure your not supos to blend your iPhone, but that doesnt stop Apple from sending one out free, just to get the advertising out there. Hak5 has a lot of views, look at Hacksaw, how many of you went out and brought U3 drives, just so you could play around with the idea that hacksaw presented? In the same way it can be used for Fon, how many people who watch hak5 new about the Fon Router before the episode was released? 10-25% of views? well now it would be closer to +80% People who sell products for profit are after one thing, and Hak5 is a perfect place to advertise. Sure the ideology for the Fon isn't being praised, but im sure most people out there are happy to bend the rules, just a little but, if it means that your pockets are a little fatter at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swathe Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 but its kinda like the blender guy on youtube when it all comes down to it. Sure your not supos to blend your iPhone, but that doesnt stop Apple from sending one out free, just to get the advertising out there. Hak5 has a lot of views, look at Hacksaw, how many of you went out and brought U3 drives, just so you could play around with the idea that hacksaw presented? In the same way it can be used for Fon, how many people who watch hak5 new about the Fon Router before the episode was released? 10-25% of views? well now it would be closer to +80% People who sell products for profit are after one thing, and Hak5 is a perfect place to advertise. Sure the ideology for the Fon isn't being praised, but im sure most people out there are happy to bend the rules, just a little but, if it means that your pockets are a little fatter at the end of the day. I think this pretty well sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 @ Deveant Sorry dude your far off. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabath Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I think this pretty well sums it up. Agreed - and also from a security point of view users need to be aware of what can be done with hardware they're using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deveant Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 @ Deveant Sorry dude your far off. Gerard Why? what makes you say that? im not trying to be rude or in your face, just looking for a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Why? what makes you say that? The point is that as far i know now someone from the FON community gave the FON routers to Darran for promotion (give away prices) and not for showing how to turn a fon router in to a Cracker hardware. (its not like Matt steaded that the paid for the Fon routers and the Fonntenna's) And FON nor the FON COMMUNITY is wanting for this kind of cracker publicity. Gerard (I smel a lawsuit coming) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deveant Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I agree that way that the hak5 crew pitched the idea of the Fon hack, wasnt the most legal of concepts, but it was just that a concept. If you watch the footage again, you will see that Hak5 never used the Fon as a malicious tool. Hence there is no grounds for a law suit. I also see no point in Matt, or any of the Hak5 crew faking an email. The emails look legit, and are worded perfectly. If so, Fon support modifications done to there device, again its great publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 If you watch the footage again, you will see that Hak5 never used the Fon as a malicious tool. Hence there is no grounds for a law suit. Darran steaded quite clearly is is sitting in front of its fav: coffeeshop "OWNING" the wireless network of that coffeeshop. And he is showing the the Fon routera a malicious tool. With that Darran is just incrementing him self Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve8x Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Well I think we can all agree upon 1 thing... If your at a coffee shop and you see some guy with a pineapple, find a new coffee shop ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digip Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 The business model depends on the goodwill of the Internet Service Providers, who may forbid connection sharing by their customers. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FON Fon's usgae policy is such that if you agree to it, for sharing your connection. But if I only wanted to buy it as a router and my own network, there is no policy I have read that restricts users from using it for their own puposes. Say you want to buy a router for your network and do what you want with it, that is up to the purchaser. All wireless in general is unsecure as far as I am concerned. It's like leaving the front door open to your house 24/7. Someone is bound to walk in unwanted evenetually, and maybe, one of those people will do something illegal. Especially on something like the Fon, I would never trust a Fon connection any more than I would another hotspot. I don't care who makes it, or what their motto is, wifi is just not safe or trustworthy. Anywhere. Not on the current standards that wireless works on, and how it operates. Maybe a new standard in the future will enable 100% secure, safe use of wifi, but with all that data flowing around openly, I fail to see how they can stop anyone from intercepting it and doing what they want with that information. It is not private in any way shape or form, and the second you go wireless, you must know that you are purposely putting all your info out there for the taking. I only use wireless when I need to get online quickly to check something, like while on the road or vacation, but I never use it for anything important, like logging in to ANY site or email. Plus, I would never use it for lengthy, every day use on my own network, as you just make it easier to be hacked/attacked/sniffed. The more packets, the easier it is to attack. Free wifi is a great concept, just like free internet in general, but it doesn't make it safe or secure by any means nor does it make me want to share my connection with anyone other than my houshold. In the US, when you use your wifi, your ISP does not want piggy backing on their network, as they can't regulate who is using it for elicit means, nor can they charge for use of their network overhead and bandwidth.Nor do I, as anyone can do something illegal and it would come back on me, since it's my router and going through my ISP. I would think they might even ban it on some ISP's. Other countries might have different laws, but here in the US, if someone, say, downloads a torrent of copyright material, I get in trouble for it, since it came through my network. Fon is like any other router, except it has two sides to it. Public and Private, but they both would share my home ISP connection, so I would still be at fault for it's use no matter what or who connects. (The original Fon's used standard Linksys routers with Fon Software ported to the router by way of OpenWRT. It in itself was a hack, at best.) So even if you have good intention to share your connection, and make a little money in the process(I thought that was the point of the Fon, was you provide access and can get a little money back for sharing it's connection - all for profit, not really for free internet) it's still a device that any purchaser can tinker with. With firmware based on the free OpenWRT community, which is available under the GPL license, it just begs to be tinkered with. I think if they wanted it locked down completely, they would have put proprietary software and hardware in the device, and lock out users from doing anything with it from day one instead of open source freely available firmware anyone can put on the device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabath Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Darran steaded quite clearly is is sitting in front of its fav: coffeeshop "OWNING" the wireless network of that coffeeshop. And he is showing the the Fon routera a malicious tool. With that Darran is just incrementing him self Gerard Watch - something else mate - this is a hacking program - even if you are white hat you need to be aware of what is possible !!!!! Oh and of you never heard of dramatic licence with regard to Darren pwning at the coffee shop. Really- typical liberal POV , oh you can't do that its not what its meant for!!!Grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deveant Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Darran steaded quite clearly is is sitting in front of its fav: coffeeshop "OWNING" the wireless network of that coffeeshop. And he is showing the the Fon routera a malicious tool. With that Darran is just incrementing him self Gerard Im currently masturbating, just because i say it, it doesn't mean that there video evidence that im doing it. It just comes under conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Watch - something else mate - this is a hacking program - even if you are white hat you need to be aware of what is possible !!!!! Oh and of you never heard of dramatic licence with regard to Darren pwning at the coffee shop. Really- typical liberal POV , oh you can't do that its not what its meant for!!!Grow up. First of i am all grow up. Second by the new laws (afther the 911) Darran just shrewed him self. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deveant Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 sadly i live in Aus, so lil different on the law side of thing, but can u quote them for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skynetbbs Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 They did! La fonera 2100 only has serial redboot access and had a http & radius bug La Fonera 2201 has no serial redboot access and no http/radius bug La Fonera 2202 will perhaps have none of these failures... and in the last 3 years none have figured out the jtag pins as well so it "can" be secured from the factory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digip Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 The point is that as far i know now someone from the FON community gave the FON routers to Darran for promotion (give away prices) and not for showing how to turn a fon router in to a Cracker hardware. (its not like Matt steaded that the paid for the Fon routers and the Fonntenna's) And FON nor the FON COMMUNITY is wanting for this kind of cracker publicity. Gerard (I smel a lawsuit coming) Showing what a device can do and educating people about something is quite different than actually filming yourself doing the illegal act. No one is saying that he doens't have the portential for the illegal act, but unless he shows us himself doing such a thing, he is merley eductaing the viewer as to the protential and the insecurity of such a thing. Full disclosure has never meant illegal in my mind. What YOU do with that information, is solely YOUR resonsibility and up to the person using that information. A persons ethics on how they use the info is what will decide the outcome of a lawsuit. Having knowledge is not illegal! What you do with it is a whole other story and I do not feel sorry for anyone who gets arrested trying to something after watching any video. If you are smart enough know how to do the hack, then you should be smart enough to know doing it on a network that is NOT yours for pentesting and education, is illegal and you will be the one paying the consequences. They teach a course called "Certified Ethical Hacking" and what Darren is showing us is nothing more than what they discuss in the CEH courses. How you use that knowledge is up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 sadly i live in Aus, so lil different on the law side of thing, but can u quote them for me? just do like i have done call a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lestock Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Let's get this finished right now. DeGrijze, you obviously have a hard on for the people at fon. Good for you it's good that you're enthusiastic about it. But this is what we do, and WE never contacted the people at FON before we originally did that segment in season3. THEY contacted us saying they caught the last episode, and enjoyed it, and were trying to use that to leverage people at FON to open the firmware. Obviously that hasn't happened To be a part of the fon community is to say you're sharing your internet in exchange for free internet elsewhere. Well, we've never connected to a free fon router, nor will we ever. Sure there's some out in the sticks here in Virginia, but that's why we have 3G phones. We don't have any FON's running on their standard firmware. Call your lawyer, there's nothing we signed when we received the FONs saying they were to be used for a specific purpose. They were delivered to our door. We didn't pay them, the emails came from someone @fon.com does that really look like a community member? I don't think so. Again, as for what we do with them, that's our business, if you don't like it, don't watch. People have said that they wanted to see more black hat, and now that we've done that, you bitch? We already showed you how to install openwrt, and we're investigating a mesh using FONs. So once again, you're a bigtime user of FON, great for you. But there is absolutely no legal recourse for installing other stuff on the FON. So go ahead call your lawyer, we'll happily keep doing what the people want to see. Enjoy! or Don't Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walcy Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Just wanted to say that the new episode was pretty sweet. Cheers, Walcy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGrijze Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 So go ahead call your lawyer, we'll happily keep doing what the people want to see. And so i have done that, and the advice given is to fill out a Report Internet Crime on the FBi homepage so i just done that. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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