Police state?

[Shaun]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7409593.stm

Phone calls database considered

Ministers are to consider plans for a database of electronic information holding details of every phone call and e-mail sent in the UK, it has emerged.

The plans, reported in the Times, are at an early stage and may be included in the draft Communications Bill later this year, the Home Office confirmed.

A Home Office spokesman said the data was a "crucial tool" for protecting national security and preventing crime.

Ministers have not seen the plans which were drawn up by Home Office officials.

A Home Office spokesman said: "The Communications Data Bill will help ensure that crucial capabilities in the use of communications data for counter-terrorism and investigation of crime continue to be available.

"These powers will continue to be subject to strict safeguards to ensure the right balance between privacy and protecting the public."

The spokesman said changes need to be made to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 "to ensure that public authorities can continue to obtain and have access to communications data essential for counter-terrorism and investigation of crime purposes".

But the Information Commission, an independent authority set up to protect personal information, said the database "may well be a step too far" and highlighted the risk of data being lost, traded or stolen.

Assistant information commissioner Jonathan Bamford said: "We are not aware of any justification for the state to hold every UK citizen's phone and internet records. We have real doubts that such a measure can be justified, or is proportionate or desirable.

"Defeating crime and terrorism is of the utmost importance, but we are not aware of any pressing need to justify the government itself holding this sort of data."

A number of data protection failures in recent months, including the loss of a CD carrying the personal details of every child benefit claimant, have embarrassed the government.

The plans also prompted concern from political groups.

The shadow home secretary, David Davis, said: "Given [ministers'] appalling record at maintaining the integrity of databases holding people's sensitive data, this could well be more of a threat to our security than a support."

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne called the proposals "an Orwellian step too far".

He said ministers had "taken leave of their senses if they think that this proposal is compatible with a free country and a free people".

"Given the appalling track record of data loss, this state is simply not to be trusted with such private information," said Mr Huhne.

No one seems to take me seriously when I say the UK is moving quite quickly towards a police state, but the police can hold people without charge for 4 weeks (the government pushed for 3 months initially and are now trying to raise it to 42 days), the police can stop and search you without reasonable suspicion (the 2000 terrorism act brought this in and it's since been used on over one hundred thousand people, do you think those people were all suspected terrorists?), we have more CCTV cameras than any other country in the world (about one for every 14 people), the government has passed legislation for a massive centralised ID register with fingerprints and iris scans for all 60 million people in the country (although I'm skeptical of the government's ability to implement such a large IT project), and lots of other stuff I could list. And now this attempt by the government to gets its hands on all emails and phone records in another lovely database.

Of course in the case of emails it would be fairly easy to get around, just don't use an email provider that operates in the UK and use encryption, but most people won't. They can already use subpoenas to get the information in some cases of course, but when it's on a centralised government database, where I have no doubt the information will remain for eternity -- they even refuse to destroy the DNA records the police take of people who are arrested and not even charged, or who are acquitted, of whom there are over a million, including a hundred thousand children -- it's a lot easier to misuse (or lose, as the government lost some disks containing the records of 25 million people including bank details last year).

In the 20th century police states traditionally functioned by having a secret police spying on the population with systems of informants and people generally being encouraged to spy on their neighbours, and although there are some elements of that, I think this is a new sort of police state. There is largely no need to go out and find information on somebody when you can monitor everything they say over all digital media, follow their movement through a massive CCTV network with face recognition software and GPS tracking systems in their vehicles (ostensibly for a pay-as-you drive form of road taxation) and know everything they buy because they have to use their thumbprint as identification for transactions. Essentially total information awareness through technology replaces the need for a gestapo or stasi. And those are all either already in place, or proposals for future systems. I'm sure we'll all be super-safe from terrorism though, after all, that's what all this is in aid of, eh?

[tim.vangehugten]

I can only give you one advice: just move out of the UK (while you still can) before the police "prohibits" it.

[digip]

Big Brother is alive and well. Think about it. CCTV, Random searches at will, held in jail without charge, keep copies of all email and phone calls. Sounds like the USA. Oh wait, you like in the UK. Doesn't seem to be much different anymore. We should just combine the two countries and call it the UKA (United Kingdom of America). Then there is the whole fear of the "North American Union" which as much as it is conspiracy crap, who is to say there isn't a grain of truth in there somewhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

Were heading to a global community, where everyone is suspect, and everything we do is under the microscope for review. About the only safe place left is blank. (fill in the blank, because I certainly don't know any more)

"Smash the control images. Smash the control machine..."

[Sparda]

Such a database is computationally infeasible. Every e-mail sent? Not possible even slightly, even if you start filtering spam. Further more, if it was to filter spam people who are trying to hide there communication would disguise there messages as spam.

[SomeoneE1se]

Such a database is computationally infeasible. Every e-mail sent? Not possible even slightly, even if you start filtering spam. Further more, if it was to filter spam people who are trying to hide there communication would disguise there messages as spam.

qfe

[VaKo]

Typical British governmental thinking, it will run massively over budget with a spec written on an etch-a-sketch, idiots at the helm and eventually, 10 years over due it will be deployed by EDS at great cost and fail dramatically with in days. In the mean time a 13yr old will have created a mash up that does the same thing and is now selling it to Google for $2 billion. People will sign up in droves for it, and it will be called tangee.su

[DeepN1KE]

Implementing this is possible, and expensive.

The main issue here will be the management, maintenance and administration. This will cost lots and lots of money, corners may be cut etc.

I think the main issue that will concern people is the cost, but mainly issues around security around this data, and invasion of privacy.

I know laws exist for a reason, but tracking everyone doing everything, just because you can doesnt make it right.

People will say if you have nothing to worry about then nothing to worry about, its not that simple. Data could be compromised, then Granny Smith who only just manages to check her email, looks like shes doing other things.

If this does go ahead, it needs to be thought through, not rushed, and very very well implemented and secured.

[digip]

I think it isn't so much keeping a copy of all emails, as it is filtering for specific language and such, marking it, storing potential threats for review, and then moving along to the next target. If they want to watch someone whom is suspect, they will have access to all their email if they want to start monitoring it, without having to serve warrant or reason. I Highly doubt any country stores all email traffic, but instead, filter it and create statistical data based on language and key words for later use.

[Sparda]

Someone fills the Internet with keyword email. Oh no, the system becomes a waste of time, money and a humiliation.

[digip]

Someone fills the Internet with keyword email. Oh no, the system becomes a waste of time, money and a humiliation.

I think it is more for security shit that they look through the emails, not so much what we would think to look for.

[Shaun]

Such a database is computationally infeasible. Every e-mail sent? Not possible even slightly, even if you start filtering spam. Further more, if it was to filter spam people who are trying to hide there communication would disguise there messages as spam.

Well, it wouldn't be possible to get every email since people can run their own private mail servers, but I don't think it would be impossible to force it on the ISPs and other major companies doing business in the UK like Google and Microsoft (Google was all too happy to censor their search results for the chinese government after all) if you're willing to spend billions on it since it would only really be emails sent in the UK (there would be no way to force email providers outside the UK to adhere to the law obviously). The projected cost of the national ID register by the London School of Economics is £12 billion to £18 billion, so I don't doubt the government would be willing to waste a lot of money on this as well. ISPs are already required to retain traffic logs for 2 years, which no doubt uses a lot of storage, although that obviously isn't centralised.

Also it's amusing to see how Labour flipped 180 degrees on ID cards (and most of their other policies actually) since they got into power: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m98HRbc0Gbw

[sintax]

Some more info can be found here

Personally I believe this is outrageous. If such a system is even possible, which I assume since the proposal is being taken seriously that they have found a way to make it possible, then it falls into the category of the NSA wiretaps in the US. Total and complete violation of privacy. Period.

[Rab]

ministers are stupid, this won't happen.

[5c4r3cr0w]

i still don't understand why countries pour so much money into the military and new ways to invade privacy. money like that would be better spent on schools, health care, curing the many diseases that plague mankind, or trying to reverse the relentless damage we do this planet. i weep for the future of mankind. i'm pretty sure within the next thousand years earth is no longer going to be able sustain life.