--The Time For Helping is Nigh--

[SomeoneE1se]

We (I) have been way too hostile to the newbies, and it's getting really old.  Tech is awesome, but it's not simple or easy to just jump into without any help.  When I started with tech, I asked what I probably would have classified as a dumb question.  Now that I know so much more then I used to, I think I have forgotten that I was a noob looking for help once too.  And so were you!  So... I'm done being an elitist asshole, and I'm going to do my best to really help when someone asks any kind of question.  This especially means I'm not going to say JFGI, or link to google, or link search results without quoting or explain it first.  This is no longer acceptable to me. 

As part of this,

I will no longer flame people for being 'stupid'....  Okay we all know this will never happen, but I'm still going to try.  I will however flame the ones who do.

I will not pass judgment on the activities of others I'm not their lawyer, nor their parent or guardian, nor their sysadmin.  A part from a simple warning that this might be a mistake I will still help anyone with ALMOST anything.  There are a few things that I won't help with and a few I'll contact the local law enforcement for.

It's time help!

And remember, don't expect to be helped unless you are willing to learn.

I also suggest/request/invite you to join me.

!DISCUSS!

[manuel]

I will try to do the same... I think the real problem is, so many people come in expecting others just to give them answers instead of trying to figure out themselves.  I think rather than posting a flaming post, I will either try to not answer the question if I can't find a way to be nice.

All I can really add, is to the new folks here, try to read the readme ( http://forums.hak5.org/index.php/topic,7499.0.html ) and try to do a little bit of research on your own.  Show us that you are willing to learn and try to answer your questions first; and we'll show you that we can try to work with you to help you get the answer.

[The_PHP_Jedi]

I agree mate. Most of us have been almost literally flamethrowers ourselves, but we don't think we were once in their position. At least a few of them will turn out to be like us (or better than us!) eventually.

We shouldn't hinder the development of others' "inner geek" just because we know more than them. In fact, we should help them!

Lets hope this message spreads out and stays in our minds.

P.S. Perhaps we should set up a site under a domain like DontFlameNoobs.org or something. :)

[VaKo]

I like this topic, i like it a lot.

[Famicoman]

Yeah, for the past two weeks, I've been something of an asshole because of some stuff that was going on, and I really don't want that streak to continue. I don't think I have done anything productive within that time, and its all because I haven't helped others to be.

[jollyrancher82]

I've said the "rtfm" shit is getting old, and people should help, but no one listened.  Oh well.

[benofsky]

To be honest, this has been the main problem with this community for a long time. "The elitists", who think they are better than everyone else, maybe they are, but they don't need to be asses about it.

I completely agree and will try and help.

[moonlit]

I agree with the positive sentiment of this thread, it's encouraging.

However, my view is a couple of degrees off of those presented here. Perhaps more could be done to accommodate those who come seeking knowledge, I admit, but on the other hand... well, on the other hand:

a) The people we help must want to help themselves. We're not here to hand out silver platters laden with all the answers in easy, 10-step how-tos.

b) There is little point in helping someone who doesn't want to be taught. Those who do wish to learn though, they're totally cool.

c) I know it might be somewhat against the spirit of this thread, but I point blank refuse to help someone who insists on asking how to break a system that they don't own, or should not have access to*. Same goes for those who don't care how a particular tool or method works just as long as they have a button that does it.

d) As an extension to points a and b, sometimes it's good to have to search for/research things yourself. It's a skill that helps immensely when there's no-one around to ask or who knows the answer you're looking for. Skip learning this and you get dependent on everyone else.

Besides those small exceptions though, I agree. I tend to help where I can anyway, but some people just don't bother trying, they just expect (and occasionally demand) immediate tech support or instructions on how to hack. Sorry kids, doesn't work that way, the "elitists" (at least the real knowledgeable ones) got where they are today because they made an effort to learn, to seek out information, to read and cram their heads full of data and notes and information, you can do the same whether we help or not.

I'd say that on the whole though we could be worse, there are some forums out there that just by posting you automatically submit yourself to a BBQ style grilling with 0% chance of getting anything useful. At least here you stand a chance, providing you're not asking for something unreasonable.

* - I re-read my post and decided a clause was required here. To protect yourself, you need to know what you're protecting yourself against. This gives an excellent reason for acquiring such knowledge. However, anonymous posters on a public forum who I don't know may not have the best intentions in mind, and I despise kids who run around thinking it's awesome to fuck up other peoples' boxes/networks (without permission) for fun and I don't want to be responsible for creating a string of them.

[The_PHP_Jedi]

a) The people we help must want to help themselves. We're not here to hand out silver platters laden with all the answers in easy, 10-step how-tos.

b) There is little point in helping someone who doesn't want to be taught. Those who do wish to learn though, they're totally cool.

They are obviously exceptions, like the ones you posted above, but the 'exception' rule shouldn't be the default option in our minds. Also, adding to point A, try to get the person to find the answers for himself. If he can't give him the first step, most people can go on by themselves once they're given the first step. (Speaking from experience.)

c) I know it might be somewhat against the spirit of this thread, but I point blank refuse to help someone who insists on asking how to break a system that they don't own, or should not have access to. Same goes for those who don't care how a particular tool or method works just as long as they have a button that does it.

Obviously anything illegal is also an exception, but try not to go "OMG GTFO NOW!" at first sight. Try to give the person some kind of idea of the consequences of his actions. Unfortunately, most attempts of this technique fail, so most of us tend to just go on GTFO-mode on these types of people.

Just try to guide them back onto the correct path, but don't spend too much effort doing so. It's not worth it if they don't budge the first time.

[Dankiswess]

Well, I dig this. 

Everything said on this thread is absolutely true.  I know I'm guilty of just being like "LOL ROFL LOL N00B FAG LOL.  BBQ GTFO N00B." At one point or another.

This is all in the spirit of spreading the technolust.  Yes, we were all noobs at one point.  We all had to ask what we would now call 'stupid' questions.  The thing is, they weren't stupid to us at the time that they were asked.  We had legitimate cause to ask said questions.  We needed someone to show us the path to go down to find the answer.  It's all part of the whole 'Give a man a fish....Teach a man to fish."  We didn't know where to look.  We didn't know what to look for.  We now have the community to make up and coming geeks' lives a little easier.  Why make them have all the hardship we had with gathering information?  I'm not saying give them all the answers, but we certainly owe a duty to show these kids how to look for answers.  That is what its really all about.  Teach the kids how to learn.  That way they don't come back all the time just asking questions.  Eventually they'll do something cool and come in and say, "Check this shit out," and we'll say, "Dude! That's bad ass, how'd you do that," and they'll say, "This is how I did it, check it out!"  We oooh and ahhhhh, and say, this kid is alright!

I thank you guys for regrouping and realizing what this all should really be about.

--Wess

[Chris Gerling]

Anyone is free to harass the hell out of me asking whatever you want to ask.  At best I will personally walk you through whatever it is.  At worst, if I'm really busy, i'll just shoot you a few links after I google a bit.

[anyedie]

Wow, this is encouraging.  I think that people trying to do what is said in this thread is exactly what this community need to get it's heart back.  :-D

[SubINacls]

I think the flaming is part of the learning process.

The flaming was much worse when i was learning, and most of the flaming was due to a person asking a simple question which could have been answered with a simple google query.

I agree that at times it can get excessive, and hard to lead a person in the direction they seek.

Some of us have/get bombarded by questions all the time and it should make us feel good about it, for people look at us and say

Now there is a smart person who may be able to help me

and its these people we should be helping "The ones who help themselves"

I try to help out as much as i can with peoples questions even if it is doing a quick google search and pasting the link

Once a person learns how to ask a question, they well start to explore on their own

So to sum up what i am trying to say:

Teach a person to use a search engine properly, and they will learn on their own!

Once they get to a point where they get stuck, they could ask a general question about that problem they have

But there are people who deserve to be flamed to oblivion, like the ones who get caught hacking their schools or other stupidly moronic things

which they know is wrong in the first place.

[SomeoneE1se]

But keep in mind not everyone knows how to search for the exact think they need, where as we has seen it and done it before so for them to ask.  "How do I stop someone from breaking into my wireless?"  We could say go to http://192.168.1.1 and run the wizard and pick a long password and WPA2 that's not in the dictionary.  Takes a LOT less time then getting all that information with google, and most people would never beable to get ALL of that with google, and it would never be in that simple of a format.

[nicatronTg]

I agree in the since that "we all didn't just appear to the world as hackers" is a true statement. :-?

I believe that telling someone that the answer is in google is better than saying "GTFO F*KIN N00B!!!".

This thread inspires me.

/me requests this thread to be stickied... as a reminder.

[K1u]

I believe that telling someone that the answer is in google is better than saying "GTFO F*KIN N00B!!!".

This thread inspires me.

Why?

[jollyrancher82]

I agree in the since that "we all didn't just appear to the world as hackers" is a true statement. :-?

Speak for yourself, I was born a hacker.  8)

[Famicoman]

I agree in the since that "we all didn't just appear to the world as hackers" is a true statement. :-?

Speak for yourself, I was born a hacker.  8)

They say that tomb coded himself from nothing.

[Corrosion.]

:) nice to hear

[Didanix]

[me=Didanix]moans & nods.[/me]

Gotta agree with this, but as always, there will be some exceptions who are beyond our help.

[jollyrancher82]

[me=Didanix]moans & nods.[/me]

Gotta agree with this, but as always, there will be some exceptions who are beyond our help.

E.g. The_PHP_Jedi

[SomeoneE1se]

[me=Didanix]moans & nods.[/me]

Gotta agree with this, but as always, there will be some exceptions who are beyond our help.

E.g. The_PHP_Jedi

STOP FLAMING!  You asshat!

[nicatronTg]

I agree in the since that "we all didn't just appear to the world as hackers" is a true statement. :-?

Speak for yourself, I was born a hacker.  8)

They say that tomb coded himself from nothing.

Tomb, could you please send me the source code?? I want a clone xD

[K1u]

I agree in the since that "we all didn't just appear to the world as hackers" is a true statement. :-?

Speak for yourself, I was born a hacker.  8)

They say that tomb coded himself from nothing.

Tomb, could you please send me the source code?? I want a clone xD

Wow.

[The_PHP_Jedi]

k1u, please stop posting single word post, as it is disruptive to the thread, and you're not really helping the cause (Not Flaming Noobs).

Lets try to stay on topic and post relevant, constructive posts.