Why am I being asked for my ID after placing an order?

[breegoot]

Hello, I placed an order and received an email saying they wanted a copy of my photo id to make a purchase. That's insane, what kind of identity theft scam is going on here? No legitimate business does this so can anyone tell me what is happening here? The fact that you can't call anyone on the phone doesn't help either, it just looks like total scam setup.

[Rkiver]

No legitimate business asks for verification of identity? I must disagree.

I have had to do it on occasion.

I run an online store, and sometimes Shopify flags an order as potentially fraudulent for a variety of reasons. When that happens, I have a choice. I can ignore the warnings, or verify the person buying is the person paying.

If you don't want to provide proof of identity or address, you don't have to.

But then they don't have to accept your order.

 

[breegoot]

I have never, ever, not one single time been asked to send in a copy of my ID to buy something online. Ever. I doubt you or anyone you know has either. It is not part of normal online purchasing. It's ironic that this is asked for under the guise of security, as if sending out copies of my ID on the internet is a good idea.

I just received a response from the company with a explanation that was less than complete and was not satisfied with the information they gave me. Whey you don't fully respond to your customers questions about a topic like this it makes it look even worse. I will continue to speak with them and try to resolve it, so I'll mark this a solved. Thank you.

[Sebkinne]

Hi Breegoot, 

I'm sorry you feel like this is a scam. I can assure you that it's not. 

Personally, I have had to go through a similar process a number of times in the US, UK, and Germany for products I have ordered. I feel your frustration with it, but now I also understand the reasoning behind it.

Due to the large number of fraudulent orders we have received, we have put a fraud detection system in place.

About 95% of our orders pass through without issues, but those 5% don't. To protect ourselves from fraud, we have to verify your details.

If you do not want to verify your identity, we aren't holding your money ransom. You can either wait 7 days for the order to automatically cancel, or you can cancel yourself at https://hakshop.com/cancel.

If you have any further concerns, our customer service will be able to assist you - just email verify@hak5.org. 

 

[breegoot]

Hi Sebkinne, thank you very much for the reply.

To be fair and clear, I'm not making an accusation. I'm not saying that I caught this company doing anything wrong.

When I emailed customer service and asked about this issue, the response I got was less than complete and accurate. This further fueled suspicion of something inappropriate going on. The response I received said that this can happen if the credit card billing address and the shipping address are not the same. My billing and shipping address are the same, so that makes it look like the person who responded just threw out a response to get me to go away or stop asking questions. I know you'll agree with me that when someone asks you for your personal information, you have the right to inquire as to the reason that they're asking and how it will be used. Especially when it occurs in such an unorthodox manner. Further, when I asked for the exact, specific reason that my purchase was flagged, I got no response. Again, this leaves the appearance that something weird is happening. I understand that you are trying to protect you business, I'm only doing the same thing as an individual, I'm sure you can understand.

At this point, since the transaction was cancelled, if I purchase the product again, will I get the same verification email? I did get a little clarification on what exactly to send in for verifying my ID and am prepared to do that, as long as the transaction can proceed and I'm not flagged now in some additional way.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my questions and concerns.

[digip]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:09 PM, breegoot said:

I have never, ever, not one single time been asked to send in a copy of my ID to buy something online. Ever. I doubt you or anyone you know has either. It is not part of normal online purchasing. It's ironic that this is asked for under the guise of security, as if sending out copies of my ID on the internet is a good idea.

I just received a response from the company with a explanation that was less than complete and was not satisfied with the information they gave me. Whey you don't fully respond to your customers questions about a topic like this it makes it look even worse. I will continue to speak with them and try to resolve it, so I'll mark this a solved. Thank you.

I don;t know about you, but EVERY department store I've made a puchase with CC from, asks me for my license. It's common practice. Just because you're online, doesn't mean the same doesn't apply, although, it can be a bit weird to see that with online purchases.

Another option, use PayPal, which verifies its users trough their banks, or some other payment method that does similar, which negates the need to show ID to a site you aren't comfortable giving it to.

[Sebkinne]

1 hour ago, breegoot said:

To be fair and clear, I'm not making an accusation. I'm not saying that I caught this company doing anything wrong.

I should probably say that I am part of "this company".

 

1 hour ago, breegoot said:

When I emailed customer service and asked about this issue, the response I got was less than complete and accurate. This further fueled suspicion of something inappropriate going on. The response I received said that this can happen if the credit card billing address and the shipping address are not the same. My billing and shipping address are the same, so that makes it look like the person who responded just threw out a response to get me to go away or stop asking questions.

There are many factors that may cause you to get flagged by the fraud detection system. It's is rather complex and takes many variables into account. While we are able to give you some pointers, the information is pulled together from a lot of different sources (past purchases for example). We don't always disclose exactly what the system may have flagged. The response you received however is an automated response. I'll see if we can get the text updated to be a bit more descriptive.

 

1 hour ago, breegoot said:

I know you'll agree with me that when someone asks you for your personal information, you have the right to inquire as to the reason that they're asking and how it will be used. Especially when it occurs in such an unorthodox manner. Further, when I asked for the exact, specific reason that my purchase was flagged, I got no response. Again, this leaves the appearance that something weird is happening. I understand that you are trying to protect you business, I'm only doing the same thing as an individual, I'm sure you can understand.

I understand the frustration. I too have been in the same boat, and completely agree. That said, I know why we do it, and why it's necessary. If you don't want to provide us with your ID, you can always use PayPal (like digip said) or Bitcoin. We often don't disclose the reason your order has been flagged as that could help fraudsters. It's the same reason game companies often don't tell you why you were banned for "cheating" if you were using some sort of in-game hack. It would tell you how they detected you and possibly allow you to prevent this.

 

1 hour ago, breegoot said:

At this point, since the transaction was cancelled, if I purchase the product again, will I get the same verification email? I did get a little clarification on what exactly to send in for verifying my ID and am prepared to do that, as long as the transaction can proceed and I'm not flagged now in some additional way.

If you haven't submitted verification information for the first order, it is very likely that you will be flagged again. At least if all the variables are the same. Existing customers or customers that have previously been verified should not have to verify again though.

[breegoot]

Hi digip.

Quote

I don't know about you, but EVERY department store I've made a purchase with CC from, asks me for my license. It's common practice.

 

My transaction did not take place in a department store. It took place over the internet.

Quote

Just because you're online, doesn't mean the same doesn't apply.

It absolutely does. As evidenced by the fact that you have probably never received and email asking for a copy of your ID after buying something online.

Respectfully, I'm trying to keep focused on the fact that requesting a copy of someones ID after an online purchase is an unorthodox practice, and it is what originally prompted my post. I have issues with the way that my inquiry about this issue was handled in regards to customer service, but I'll take them up in a continuing conversation via email support.

 

[breegoot]

7 hours ago, Sebkinne said:

I should probably say that I am part of "this company".

 

There are many factors that may cause you to get flagged by the fraud detection system. It's is rather complex and takes many variables into account. While we are able to give you some pointers, the information is pulled together from a lot of different sources (past purchases for example). We don't always disclose exactly what the system may have flagged. The response you received however is an automated response. I'll see if we can get the text updated to be a bit more descriptive.

 

I understand the frustration. I too have been in the same boat, and completely agree. That said, I know why we do it, and why it's necessary. If you don't want to provide us with your ID, you can always use PayPal (like digip said) or Bitcoin. We often don't disclose the reason your order has been flagged as that could help fraudsters. It's the same reason game companies often don't tell you why you were banned for "cheating" if you were using some sort of in-game hack. It would tell you how they detected you and possibly allow you to prevent this.

 

If you haven't submitted verification information for the first order, it is very likely that you will be flagged again. At least if all the variables are the same. Existing customers or customers that have previously been verified should not have to verify again though.

Thank you for a very reasonable and clear response to my questions, I appreciate it very much. We're all trying to stay safe out here and best practices help us all, thanks for taking the time, it helps everyone. I will repeat the purchase and I have the verification ready. Thanks!

[Sebkinne]

Any time - glad I could clear up your concerns.

[digip]

1 hour ago, breegoot said:

Hi digip.

 

My transaction did not take place in a department store. It took place over the internet.

It absolutely does. As evidenced by the fact that you have probably never received and email asking for a copy of your ID after buying something online.

Respectfully, I'm trying to keep focused on the fact that requesting a copy of someones ID after an online purchase is an unorthodox practice, and it is what originally prompted my post. I have issues with the way that my inquiry about this issue was handled in regards to customer service, but I'll take them up in a continuing conversation via email support.

 

I've actually had to send copies of my license to sites before, which I won't go into, but it happens. Age verification, proof of residence, these things are often things that when using a CC, they want 2 forms of ID for certain things. I'll admit, it's not common to see it with an online purchase, but like I said, you can try something like PayPal as an alternative, which verifies you via your bank. I personally don't like to use my CC, and will shop other places when I can't use PayPal because of putting my CC out there, to me, is one thing I don't want to end up being dumped on some carding site, and always use PP where possible. PP requires you to login every time(unless you save the settings) to finalize the purchase, unlike some sites that store your CC info for new purchases, which I don't like when it comes to online shopping. Having had a business of my own, PP made it simple to handle transactions without having to do the chasing and verifying for billing. Just my 2 cents.

[Rkiver]

On 01/12/2017 at 10:09 PM, breegoot said:

I have never, ever, not one single time been asked to send in a copy of my ID to buy something online. Ever. I doubt you or anyone you know has either. It is not part of normal online purchasing. It's ironic that this is asked for under the guise of security, as if sending out copies of my ID on the internet is a good idea.

Just to clear it up, and not to drag out this conversation;

You'd be wrong in your assumption. Like Sebkinne I run an online business ( I run a European reseller actually) , I have had to ask people for their ID, and have had to provide mine too. It can and does happen. You can choose to say I am lying, or accept what I say at face value. 

I can understand the frustration and confusion though, and hopefully Seb helps clarify it for you (he's much better at that than I am).

[greendarla807]

it is very very very frustrated .

i have bought the wifi pineapple before and some other gear from the hak5 store with no issue , i have been waiting for the holiday sales for a long time , enthusiastically i try to order the new elite kit only to have the order cancelled over and over again with different paying methods , at some point i became desperate because i was losing my mind wanting to try out the new gear , i tried registering a new email and used it and that got cancelled too ,  after sending  very private data as a last attempt to costumer support  it gets cancelled again , this time  costumer service tells me that i can not buy the gear because i dont live in the right country ... not only that, but i can not even use a reshipping service or anything like that which is very strange to me ... the whole thing felt far removed from the spirit of freedom of knewledge and the right to explore and enjoy technology by everyone ... the whole thing gave me a knot in my stomach , i tried talking directly to snubbz and darren but they did not reply .... to this point i was a big fan , i watch the show the whole time and i subscribe to your channel and i also as i mentioned love your gear ... again ... a knot in my guts ... i just dont understand why you would use a verifecation system that blocks returning costumers ... not to sound melodramatic : but is not this the very form of information (in the form of technology) tyranny we all stand against ? and i am paying good money from a verified account for high quality products , why not allow me to buy them ? if you build a wall around yourself that is too high you will keep the evil out but also the good .... and that is just another form of evil ... sorry for the drama ... nut i feel really strongly about this 

[Just_a_User]

21 minutes ago, greendarla807 said:

it is very very very frustrated .

i have bought the wifi pineapple before and some other gear from the hak5 store with no issue , i have been waiting for the holiday sales for a long time , enthusiastically i try to order the new elite kit only to have the order cancelled over and over again with different paying methods , at some point i became desperate because i was losing my mind wanting to try out the new gear , i tried registering a new email and used it and that got cancelled too ,  after sending  very private data as a last attempt to costumer support  it gets cancelled again , this time  costumer service tells me that i can not buy the gear because i dont live in the right country ... not only that, but i can not even use a reshipping service or anything like that which is very strange to me ... the whole thing felt far removed from the spirit of freedom of knewledge and the right to explore and enjoy technology by everyone ... the whole thing gave me a knot in my stomach , i tried talking directly to snubbz and darren but they did not reply .... to this point i was a big fan , i watch the show the whole time and i subscribe to your channel and i also as i mentioned love your gear ... again ... a knot in my guts ... i just dont understand why you would use a verifecation system that blocks returning costumers ... not to sound melodramatic : but is not this the very form of information (in the form of technology) tyranny we all stand against ? and i am paying good money from a verified account for high quality products , why not allow me to buy them ? if you build a wall around yourself that is too high you will keep the evil out but also the good .... and that is just another form of evil ... sorry for the drama ... nut i feel really strongly about this 

Are you buying from a country with a US trade embargo on it? https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx

[greendarla807]

no

fyi i tried using paypal and it also got rejected

[Just_a_User]

8 minutes ago, greendarla807 said:

no

fyi i tried using paypal and it also got rejected

I can only guess but maybe your delivery address is different to the payment method address? If not I'm not sure why, I'm sorry I cant help any more. I have always used PayPal and had no problems so far.

[greendarla807]

well if there was someone you could talk to on a phone or even a skype or something maybe it would have been different maybe not ... anyways thanks  Just_a_User . 

[Rkiver]

Seb explained why they need to verify. I explained why I would need to verify.

Loving the show, trying to talk to Darren or Shannon directly (they don't run the store) wont change the fact they have protocalls in place.

I can understand your frustration, but if for whatever reason your payment flags, they have to verify it. I do when my system flags.  We're all against tyranny. But we all want to be paid. And to do so we mitigate risk.

[greendarla807]

that is my point ... i want to PAY , but i am not allowed to because of an overly stringent system ... why block someone that already BOUGHT from you before and paid good money and now wants to buy again ... makes no sense ... more than that its bad business , your actually losing money , and i am sorry but you dont understand my frustration , your identifying  with the seller because your a seller yourself , dont get me wrong ... it just does not make sense to automate the system completely without allowing for error correction ... if nothing else but to maximize profit .

[0phoi5]

13 hours ago, greendarla807 said:

that is my point ... i want to PAY , but i am not allowed to because of an overly stringent system ... why block someone that already BOUGHT from you before and paid good money and now wants to buy again ... makes no sense ... more than that its bad business , your actually losing money , and i am sorry but you dont understand my frustration , your identifying  with the seller because your a seller yourself , dont get me wrong ... it just does not make sense to automate the system completely without allowing for error correction ... if nothing else but to maximize profit .

This is getting a little out of hand now. I'm a blunt person, so I'll say it as it is;

• Any retailer selling any item has a right to ask the customer for ID, if they wish.
• They don't have to give a reason. Generally, it's for security purposes or to mitigate fraud.
• They don't have to specify exactly why the transaction was flagged; to do so would potentially give information to someone unscrupulous. They are not saying that you are unscrupulous, but they cannot be certain either. If it was flagged, it was flagged. Tough.
• If you don't wish to provide the ID, they have a right to refuse the transaction.
• This is completely fair, as there is no onus on the customer to purchase the product; it's a choice.
• If you don't like it, don't purchase.
• The world does not revolve around you.

Edited December 22, 2017 by haze1434

[biob]

If your not happy with it then just don’t buy the items. Arguing about it isn’t going to get you anywhere! 

[greendarla807]

first things first :

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS !

i am sorry that i got emotional ... i love hak5 and i will continue being a big fan ... i think you guys are great and although i dont know you i do love you guys .

Obviously the store can refuse my business and obviously i can choose not to buy , but  i wanna solve the problem so both I as the costumer and the hak5 store can get what we want ... i am been thinking about a solution to the problem and here is what i have come up with :

solution one :

1. scaled capping system : allow people to buy in small increasing increments , first buy 25 $ , second buy 75$ and third buy 150 $ and so forth  . at whatever increments and steps you guys see fit to allow the costumer to prove that he is a reliable source of payment . this way you minimize risk and allow costumer to  maintain privacy .

the pros of this are obvious .

the cons are :  there is still a small amount of risk for small loss , my solution to this is to allow this method depending on predefined amount , say your willing to risk 1000 dollars of loss to this method per 6 months , if this amount is reached you stop using this method until the next cycle .

2. the buyer pays in a way that the funds are immediatley transffered to the hak5 store without any intermedieries , like a wire transfer or even snail mail payment in cash .

3. offer a small inventory of the gear on ebay or it euivalent or link to third party vendors that would allow purchasing items , that way you minimize risk for yourself while providing costumer with service ... the bummer is its gonna be a bit more expensive for the end consumer ... but sela ve , its better than nothing thatws for sure

p.s : probably not gonna be relevant to my case , but if something like this gets implimented i can wait a year to next christmas to buy my sweet sweet hak5 gear , and on a side note the last jedi was awesome , just kinda sux that luke disapeared ona distant planet , they could have got the same result if he pulled an obi one and disapeared when kylo ren hit him ... still pretty awesome movie ... the yoda scene was insane ... are we gonna see the other masters in the next movies...wow

Edited December 23, 2017 by greendarla807

[Rkiver]

I cannot speak for Hak5, and I do not.

I speak for myself and my business alone.

If a customer is flagged, for whatever reason, until that is resolved, I cannot take an order from them using that payment method. You can put forward all these ideas and solutions, but I simply cannot and will not take an order from a flagged customer. You can argue that all you want, but no. I will not change my mind. My business is too important to my income to risk that.

Now, offering other payment methods? I do. Bank transfers. But they still take 3-5 business days to clear. 

 

 

[greendarla807]

i understand and i agree with you , as long as there as there a reason to think the buyer is not on the up in up , but on the other hand there has to be a way for the buyer to get "unflagged" so to speak , for those cases when there is error on the buyers side or a technical issue with the flagging system

in your opinion if the wire transfer clears and you get the funds , is that sufficient to supply the buyer with the products ?

 

 

[unverified]

I just had the same thing happen to me. First I must say that I find some of the answers here amusing, I remember having to show an ID card when using a creditcard, I just cant remember if it was in the 1980's or 1990's.  Since then we have PIn+Chip and Mastercard securecode.

 

"Our order processor flagged the transaction while authorizing the payment. They need some additional information before it can be processed. That means it won't be able to ship it until some information has been verified."

So according to my bank the money was taken from my account in the same second as I pressed the order button. So the problem was not with the credit card or securing the payment. There was some other information missing or needing verification.

 

I was asked to e-mail a picture of a photo ID card showing my address but with any sensitive information like license ID covered.

Since highly evolved countries dont have addresses on ID cards I couldnt do that, but there was a second option. E-mailing a picture of a photo ID without the address and a picture  of the creditcard showing (perhaps they meant - only) the last 4 digits of the card.

 

So what information did they really want that they didnt have yet ? A photo of me for sure, a photo of a partial ID card in a foreign language, a partial credit card.
Mastercard does not have my photo. It's unlikely that the call center can read and verify the partial ID card.

They also say that the information that is e-mailed will be promptly removed once this "verification" is done.

Given that it probably takes less than 5 minutes to photoshop an ID card and a creditcard, what is it that they hope to achieve by the process ????
 

I sent a question to customer service about what "problem" they had found, then I canceled my order. I also sent a question about how to cancel my account with Hak5 (no point in having once since I cant order). But so far nothing useful back.

 

It's obviously futile to post about this problem in this forum, but perhaps someone reads this before ordering from Hak5 and decides that companies that behaves like this shouldnt get any business.