Can dsl lines between houses be used for a network ?

[thedeadhand54]

Hello,

I was asked a question and had no answer as I am just not old enough to have participated in the good old days of dial up internet. 

If two houses are next to each other and a dsl line runs to them both can the two houses communicate without a subscription to the phone company? And is it legal?

Sorry if this is a stupid question but my knowledge of phone networks is limited. 

Thank you

[Dave-ee Jones]

If they are that close you could run a line from one to the other yes. You would need something on either end to translate the data into Ethernet cables. Fiber optics might be a better option too. Worst case scenario - run an Ethernet cable along the fence or dig a trench, put a pipe in it with the cable inside and do it that way (probably not wise, as it could leak and if the cable dies/breaks you have to rip it up).

Or you could have a WiFi solution. Ubiquiti Wireless Routers/APs have a pretty long range, and you could have one on either side, 1 relaying the other. However just remember that anyone walking between the two houses or right outside either house can see the WiFi SSID, though there are ways to protect it (hide the SSID, setup WPA2 encryption etc.).

Having a quick google is helpful too..

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1848862/sharing-internet-betweem-houses.html

https://www.infopackets.com/news/9478/share-internet-between-two-homes

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2399466

https://www.cnet.com/au/how-to/home-networking-explained-part-1-heres-the-url-for-you/

[0phoi5]

2 hours ago, Dave-ee Jones said:

Run an Ethernet cable

Reminds me of Uni.

Me and my flatmate next door found that the Uni internet was too slow for our gaming purposes, so we drilled a small hole in the wall and simply ran Ethernet between us. Went from 200+ ms PING to about 4ms PING.

Unfortunately, I spent more time at Uni playing games than actual work. Damn that cable.

[digip]

7 hours ago, thedeadhand54 said:

Hello,

I was asked a question and had no answer as I am just not old enough to have participated in the good old days of dial up internet. 

If two houses are next to each other and a dsl line runs to them both can the two houses communicate without a subscription to the phone company? And is it legal?

Sorry if this is a stupid question but my knowledge of phone networks is limited. 

Thank you

I'm assuming you're talking about traveling back form the house, up the pole and then back down to the other house? In theory yes, but in practice, probably not. DSL(or any ISP network) equipment on the pole would need to know where to route you to, and you'd have to be part of the same subnet/network that will switch packets between you and the neighbor to see each other.

As mentioned above, you could run a line directly between the two houses though, whatever medium you want(with the right equipment if not straight cat-5/6) and make your own small subnet to share over. Better would be to setup a separate wifi vlan to bridge between the two houses, cut the need for physical wires, but that poses it's own security issues in itself. If you can reach between the two homes, run ethernet through a conduit in the ground or above ground. Just know there is a limit to how far you can run cable before attenuation is an issue (328ft for gigabit over Cat-5) and you need a switch or hub/repeater in between them over longer distances to keep the signal. This is why wifi would be more appropriate with two routers and directional antennas pointed at each other either window to window or roof to roof. If you each have internet access, then a VPN into each others networks would be simpler than any of the above, and just use your existing internet connection to share files or whatever it is you're trying to do.

[thedeadhand54]

It's kinda unique situation. House A is near the main road. House B is 5000 feet away from it down a private road with no other houses, but does have a few boosters. So I would image they are on the same subnet. 

[0phoi5]

29 minutes ago, thedeadhand54 said:

It's kinda unique situation. House A is near the main road. House B is 5000 feet away from it down a private road with no other houses, but does have a few boosters. So I would image they are on the same subnet. 

5000ft of buried Ethernet cable is a bit too far. I'd go for a Bridged Wi-Fi solution (as mentioned by digip, use directional antennas on top of each building, pointing at each other).

Then yes, they can definitely communicate over Wi-Fi without external internet being available. You'd have to set up a router on each end.

Edited July 5, 2017 by haze1434

[thedeadhand54]

I'd be transferring video signals probably via udp so ping isn't a huge issue. out here in the boondocks trees kill wifi signals and running power lines 5000 feet to create a mesh network would be not fun.

I thought about running a fiber line but I don't have 5k laying around. But it could be a last resort option.

I agree the phone company is nuts for running a dsl line that far, I get a transfer rate of about 1 megabit but that going all the way back to the main hub which is miles away. I would be curious to test what transfer rate I would get on the line it self from house a to house b but I'm not even sure how to hook it up.

Forgive my ignorance in dsl but how would I even get an ip without using the telephones companies modem?

paying for service on 1 of them or both of them is an option too I'm not trying to be cheap I just thought It might be redundant if they were on the same sub network.

[Dave-ee Jones]

14 hours ago, haze1434 said:

Reminds me of Uni.

Me and my flatmate next door found that the Uni internet was too slow for our gaming purposes, so we drilled a small hole in the wall and simply ran Ethernet between us. Went from 200+ ms PING to about 4ms PING.

Unfortunately, I spent more time at Uni playing games than actual work. Damn that cable.

Haha, classic :P

5000 ft is a bit too far to run an Ethernet cable over. Sounds like you need two WiFi antennas (directional) pointed at each other. You should be able to find a good solution from Google there.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Dave-ee Jones

[barry99705]

22 hours ago, thedeadhand54 said:

I'd be transferring video signals probably via udp so ping isn't a huge issue. out here in the boondocks trees kill wifi signals and running power lines 5000 feet to create a mesh network would be not fun.

I thought about running a fiber line but I don't have 5k laying around. But it could be a last resort option.

I agree the phone company is nuts for running a dsl line that far, I get a transfer rate of about 1 megabit but that going all the way back to the main hub which is miles away. I would be curious to test what transfer rate I would get on the line it self from house a to house b but I'm not even sure how to hook it up.

Forgive my ignorance in dsl but how would I even get an ip without using the telephones companies modem?

paying for service on 1 of them or both of them is an option too I'm not trying to be cheap I just thought It might be redundant if they were on the same sub network.

You don't.  Phone's aren't daisy chained.  They all go back to a switch somewhere in your neighborhood.  Any traffic on the wires has and does go through the phone company's equipment.  You might be able to talk them into giving you a T1 connection between the houses.  It's how the school district I used to work for connected some of the outlying schools to the main building.  Not sure how much that's going to cost though.  Probably be cheaper to get a basic internet subscription on both, and vpn between them.

Edited July 6, 2017 by barry99705

[digip]

You'd have more luck with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication than trying to connect over the phones network without their help. Packet switching being the issue and the equipment to make it work, you aren't exactly hard wired to each other, or you could use something like the above link.

These are more for in home networking/same building - https://www.cnet.com/news/top-five-power-line-adapters-when-wi-fi-fails-you/ but if you could run the wire, you could potentially do the same thing. I don't know how the attenuation is though, or how far you can go before signal dies.

[thedeadhand54]

Barry: it' not a neighborhood its a country road with a mile long drive way, so figured they would be on the same subnet as they are the only two houses connected to the line which I know for sure is the same line. I would love to pay for 2 subscriptions to an fast isp but dal is the only option for this location.

ethernet over power line seems interesting, high voltage lines I think require a service which I doubt is offered but Maybe there is a low voltage line connecting the dsl boosters or something. 

anyone think its even possible to use the dsl line if they are on the same line?

thanks for you help guys

[digip]

The power line stuff, stops when they hit a transformer on the poll or edge of building, so won't help in your case. Would need equipment to pass the signal up the pole and back down and across transformers. As for DSL, call the phone company. Without their help I don't see it happening short of knowing how to patch and enable the connections yourself at the nearest punch down block, and even then, not sure how you plan to create the network. DSL modems still talk back to the phone company equipment, so not sure how that works. It's not an Ethernet switch or router where anything plugged into it can see each other. Would still require some sort of service from the phone company I would think to provision the modem and create the network subnet/loop. If you had serial based equipment like cisco routers, you could in theory create frame relay, requiring somewhere between you and the other house router that does the packet switching, but I don't think you'll see each other house to house without direct lines. 

This is where Wifi is probably your best bet, either rooftop to rooftop or up the closest tree(s) to line of sight at each other, or, multiple wifi routers powered somehow and bridged to one another to relay the network like a wireless mesh. You could go as far as Ham radio packet switching with the right equipment and antenna structure too, which works, but would be way slower, but straight wifi with the right antennas would be the quickest and easiest to setup and maintain.

[thedeadhand54]

I did find this which might be a very good option

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_optical_communication

ir laser communication. seems like a viable option.

cannon looks like they made a budget model a few years ago.

Has anyone used these?

 

Canobeam-DT-120-Type-SFP-DT-MNG100

Edited July 6, 2017 by thedeadhand54

[thedeadhand54]

actually here is a site with exactly what I'm trying to do.

they recommend this crazy rf antenna or the laser optical

http://www.lightpointe.com/video---security-backhaul-1.html

[barry99705]

7 hours ago, thedeadhand54 said:

Barry: it' not a neighborhood its a country road with a mile long drive way, so figured they would be on the same subnet as they are the only two houses connected to the line which I know for sure is the same line. I would love to pay for 2 subscriptions to an fast isp but dal is the only option for this location.

ethernet over power line seems interesting, high voltage lines I think require a service which I doubt is offered but Maybe there is a low voltage line connecting the dsl boosters or something. 

anyone think its even possible to use the dsl line if they are on the same line?

thanks for you help guys

Unless the phone rings in both buildings and either can answer, it's not the same line.

I've tried the ethernet over power things.  Wanted to get my network into my barn.  Barn's power is tied to the breaker box in the house's basement.  It couldn't keep a 1mbps connection.  Within the house, in the same room I could get 100mbps, but if I put one in my office, and the other in the tv room, it dropped down to around 25mbps.  This is a house that was built in 1832, then updated in the mid 90's, so pretty sure all the knob and tube is gone.  The barn is maybe 50 yards from the house.  I just use the wifi in my living room, it reaches just fine, and it's not a directional antenna.  I'd give a couple point to point radios a shot, you might actually get a connection.

 

Couple of these aren't too terribly expensive.

Edited July 7, 2017 by barry99705

[digip]

Also look for dedicated out-door hardware. They cost a bit more, but instead of building enclosures and waterproofing everything, go with stuff made to sit outside and mounted on a pole above the rooftop. Also, being almost a mile at "5,000" feet as you claim, you will need line of sight or higher end equipment to make better use of the wifi if a lot of tree coverage is in the way. The higher the better.

These guys here, claim to get roughly 9 miles of connectivity - https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Station-M900-900MHz-Air-Max/dp/B004FRVKC6 but there might be newer stuff that is faster for the same price range.

[0phoi5]

You mentioned that line-of-sight between the buildings is not possible, due to trees. Please see the below information.

http://www.digitalairwireless.com/wireless-blog/t-5ghz/non-line-of-sight-feasibility.html

 

Dog Legging

Dog legging is when both ends of the link have not got line of sight to each other, but both have line of sight to a common point. This common point can be used as an intermediate point or "dog leg". The most efficient way to use this point is to have 2 separate wireless bridges (4 radios total) as there is no loss of throughput. It is possible also to create a dog leg by having the intermediate point repeat the signal however this will half the links throughput as the central radio has to spend half its time listening to signals sent to it, and the other repeating them.

Using a Lower Frequency

Lower frequencies have longer wavelengths so are less prone to the effects of attenuation.  A great example of this when you look at Dual band access points inside buildings. If you take a reading in the next room you will see that the 2.4GHz signal is stronger than the 5GHz (in most cases). This is because the shorter wavelength of the 5GHz signal is effected more by the walls than the 2.4GHz. For this reason, high frequency microwave links such as 60 and 80GHz require perfect line of sight, whereas 5GHz links can often punch through trees and bushes etc. If your 5GHz link is not working then a 2.4GHz may be the answer.

Raise The Output Power

The higher the output power, the more likely the signal is to penetrate any obstacles. You need to be careful to operate within legal limits however if you take 5GHz as an example then if operating in band B you can only output at 1W. If this is not enough then moving to operate in band C will allow you to output at 4W which may solve your problem.

Physically Mount the link higher

The simplest way to achieve line of site in a lot of cases is to mount your wireless equipment on the top of large poles. The pole must be properly mounted and guided down to prevent movement.

Multipath is your friend

In some cases it may be possible to use surrounding buildings or reflective surfaces to bounce the wireless signal around corners or obstacles. This can be a bit hit and miss and result in low data rates, but I have seen a fair number of links use this method and work fine.

In short, just because you don’t have line of sight, it doesn\'t mean a link cant be achieved but until you actually survey the link using the correct hardware you are not going to know for sure. Use caution in situations where the environment can change. For example if you have a link that goes through trees and works well during the winter, that same link may not work during the summer when the trees are in bloom!

[thedeadhand54]

Barry, dig and haze. thanks for all the help I have allot of good options now.

ill look into open air systems such as laser or ghz radio. its going to be in like -20 f deg temperatures so I might call up a few companies and get some prices.

I will also research the 2 amazon links and see what luck people have had overall.

 

[barry99705]

I install the Ubiquiti stuff all the time.  Their equipment rocks, though without seeing the site, I couldn't tell you if it will work or not, but like I said, those are cheap, worth a shot.  The temperature shouldn't bother them.  I actually ran a consumer d-link webcam in a homemade pvc enclosure for a couple years on the roof of my house.  I was the failure point for it.  Plugged the wrong wall wart into the poe injector when I moved my network equipment in the garage.  It survived months of -40F and colder.

[thedeadhand54]

thanks i will defiantly look at Ubiquiti

[thedeadhand54]

On 7/7/2017 at 5:38 PM, barry99705 said:

I install the Ubiquiti stuff all the time.  Their equipment rocks, though without seeing the site, I couldn't tell you if it will work or not, but like I said, those are cheap, worth a shot.  The temperature shouldn't bother them.  I actually ran a consumer d-link webcam in a homemade pvc enclosure for a couple years on the roof of my house.  I was the failure point for it.  Plugged the wrong wall wart into the poe injector when I moved my network equipment in the garage.  It survived months of -40F and colder.

Berry ubiquiti i awesome i will try them out.

thank you for the info.

[Dave-ee Jones]

On 7/8/2017 at 7:38 AM, barry99705 said:

I install the Ubiquiti stuff all the time.  Their equipment rocks, though without seeing the site, I couldn't tell you if it will work or not, but like I said, those are cheap, worth a shot.  The temperature shouldn't bother them.  I actually ran a consumer d-link webcam in a homemade pvc enclosure for a couple years on the roof of my house.  I was the failure point for it.  Plugged the wrong wall wart into the poe injector when I moved my network equipment in the garage.  It survived months of -40F and colder.

Stole my idea