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White Spaces / Analog Signal Leftovers


Pwnd2Pwnr
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Hey-Row...

Down to business. I am wanting to know more about using white spaces and how to decode their packets for use to traverse the ever-growing internet. I found a lot on how the UHF signals broadcast for television. My hypothesis is as follows:

ANALOG SIGNAL (WHITE SPACE)---RECEIVER--ROUTER--PC. Is there a unit that acts as the UHF RECEIVER+ROUTER>USB 3.0=PC? I looked, but couldn't find anything that acts as a realtime receiver... Could Pineapple handle something like this?

I want to collaborate on this project. In the drawing stage... but I need to MAKE this... I hope you guys know where I am coming from... being technophiles and all!!! IDEAS WELCOME... LETS DO IT!

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HEADLINE 18®’ LOREM IPSUM DOLOR SIT AMET CONSECTETUER

UNITED STATES

In December 2010, the FCC published its final rules of utilizing white spaces for broadband access. As previously mentioned, white spaces are those broadcast channels that are left unused owing geographic restrictions, etc. Historically, some of these will have been used and may STILL be used, by broadcast ancillaries (assisting/auxiliary) such as wireless microphones, etc, but with this ruling the FCC has opened up the possibility (UPDATE:FCC APPROVED) of deploying local area wireless broadband access using technology similar to WiFi, hence some commentators have referred to these systems as "WiFi on steroids". In order to avoid interference with wireless microphones, this rule making also proposes to allocate two spare UHF broadcast channels solely for their use.

This use of these UHF frequencies as opposed to more traditional and GHz WiFi bands is intended to increase the range and coverage of these systems, and thus provide broadband access to a wider population at a lower infrastructure cost. :wub:

Also, in the United States, is a public safety service allocation at 769-775/799-805 MHz for narrowband operations and 763-768/793-805 MHz for broadband operations with guard bands between these at 768-769/798-799 MHz.

END QUOTE

Also, one more piece of the puzzle... for those who need to brush up a bit (like me) on receiver correlation.

QUOTE: Theodorou, E.A.

University of Cambridge, Dept. of Engineering,

Cambridge, UK, VOL 127 - issue 4 Pgs. 199-208

ABSTRACT

The correlation receiver detects a signal by comparing the input waveform, containing noise and interference with a reference waveform. This principle can be applied up to microwave frequencies (Ubertooth, ^_^ ) and we have detected a signal/noise ratio of ¿53dB in an input bandwidth of 1 GHz. This is far from the theoretical performance and improvement in components can reduce that limit much farther (Tech nowadays :blink:)

Did some homework. It is very informative. Will keep researching. Hope you guys will help me on this one. Got one other collaborator, and he does not have much time, having working full time (including Labor Day). He says it is doable, but I need some other heads to bump together on it! B)

Three types of people in life; Pussies, assholes, and dicks.... lets all be a dick and kindly screw the pussies, but maybe fuck an asshole or two (metaphorically speaking, of course!)

Edited by Pwnd2Pwnr
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Packet radio is more or less kind of like the data over ham radio and predates "commercial" wifi from what I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio

Edited by digip
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Packet radio is more or less kind of like the data over ham radio and predates "commercial" wifi from what I recall.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Packet_radio

The us is opening up analog wavelengths to be converted to a sort of FREE ISP... google it bud!

Free, meaning tax dollars, not ABSOLUTELY FREE :angry:

Edited by Pwnd2Pwnr
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Couldn't PM ya... but I hate deleting all the bullshit, too. But, I hope you can wrap your brain around what I am saying (I am sure ya can)

Digininja and I had a pretty good chat on this topic. The FCC has passed legislation for opening analog signals (white space = signals that are not used) for internet traversal. Not a lot of people are on the band wagon, but this is not a new concept. In the 50's, computers were basically buildings and analog signals (television) was the craze. It is still used today, though not widely. Law enforcement, military, etc.

The signals (given you are within range of an analog antenna) can be as little as 80 Mbs (long range) and 400-800 Mps (short range). This would be a cheaper, more viable way of getting rural communities internet access vs laying lines, making new antennas. Analog antennas are basically everywhere.

What's your take on this?

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But it still revolves over the same concept, just different wavelengths, right?

There is something to understand between what you are looking for, which I imagine is high speed data over wifi, and what in reality is packet radio, which I mentioned before BSODtv did a segment on. FOXX sent data over FRS radios using a soundcard and some dos program that basically turned it into packet radio and you could send files between two radios say across the neighborhood, as where with HAM and packet radio, you can do like say moon bounce to reach the other side of the globe, but the speed and transmission rates are super slow, and its essentially like UDP just sends all at once and hope the recipient gets it(no dropped packet resending like with TCP, its more or less connectionless from what I understand), not to mention non routable and has no security in place to determine your intended recipient is the only person receiving it.

Packet radio broadcasts everything out in the open, and with someone listening in using the right equipment, could just basically receive whatever you intended for party a and b, parties c-z could also hear sniff and intercept the messages as well. You could encode and encapsulate data before sending, which works in Frame Relay and wired networking, but from what I udnerstand the FCC says whatever you do over the Ham radio frequencies, they have a right to listen in on if they want, so there is no "encryption" meant to be in use. Commercial radio, police band, fbi, etc, even to some extent, are all in the open, and with the right equipment, you can pick up non public radio bands by modifying simple police scanners to pick up federal radio frequencies and non public bands.

I had at one time, tried using my bearcat, to pick up satellite data using my soundcard and a program for windows that took recorded data from a specific band, and converted it to images or maps like doplar radar, but my radio and soundcard setup never seemed to work or do what I needed. Possibly because of interference, my location, living in an apartment and where the radio waves come in from, or limitation of my radio, but I was never able to get it to work properly.

Anyway, the new whitespace stuff, is going to bring high speed data over wifi and use protocols we're familiar with if not new ones in the near term, but basically like normal networking we would see today with TCP/IP and other wifi data, just in the UHF/VHF TV bands that are no longer in use, and years away from residential use since equipment needs to be made to basically act as modems and wifi equipment all in one, since radio is more or less analog or digital data converted to analog sent over radio then demodulated back to digital data on the receivers end. Packet signaling predates even TCP/IP, and is what was used back in the day for phone networks and switches and still in use in some places like frame relay and such. Just most people today only think of conventional internet protocols, and what we consider to be wifi and wired ethernet.

Read up on stuff like the CompTIA Network+(pre N10-004 which also talks about Token Ring and older protocols that I don';t think they cover today in the N10-004) and Cisco entry level stuff, and it gives some background into packet switching in itself, and how old dial up modems worked and such. Tons of stuff you can read up with online. Darren did a series on multiplexing, or time-division multiplexing and phone networks and early networking a while back too.

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There is something to understand between what you are looking for, which I imagine is high speed data over wifi, and what in reality is packet radio, which I mentioned before BSODtv did a segment on. FOXX sent data over FRS radios using a soundcard and some dos program that basically turned it into packet radio and you could send files between two radios say across the neighborhood, as where with HAM and packet radio, you can do like say moon bounce to reach the other side of the globe, but the speed and transmission rates are super slow, and its essentially like UDP just sends all at once and hope the recipient gets it(no dropped packet resending like with TCP, its more or less connectionless from what I understand), not to mention non routable and has no security in place to determine your intended recipient is the only person receiving it.

Packet radio broadcasts everything out in the open, and with someone listening in using the right equipment, could just basically receive whatever you intended for party a and b, parties c-z could also hear sniff and intercept the messages as well. You could encode and encapsulate data before sending, which works in Frame Relay and wired networking, but from what I udnerstand the FCC says whatever you do over the Ham radio frequencies, they have a right to listen in on if they want, so there is no "encryption" meant to be in use. Commercial radio, police band, fbi, etc, even to some extent, are all in the open, and with the right equipment, you can pick up non public radio bands by modifying simple police scanners to pick up federal radio frequencies and non public bands.

I had at one time, tried using my bearcat, to pick up satellite data using my soundcard and a program for windows that took recorded data from a specific band, and converted it to images or maps like doplar radar, but my radio and soundcard setup never seemed to work or do what I needed. Possibly because of interference, my location, living in an apartment and where the radio waves come in from, or limitation of my radio, but I was never able to get it to work properly.

Anyway, the new whitespace stuff, is going to bring high speed data over wifi and use protocols we're familiar with if not new ones in the near term, but basically like normal networking we would see today with TCP/IP and other wifi data, just in the UHF/VHF TV bands that are no longer in use, and years away from residential use since equipment needs to be made to basically act as modems and wifi equipment all in one, since radio is more or less analog or digital data converted to analog sent over radio then demodulated back to digital data on the receivers end. Packet signaling predates even TCP/IP, and is what was used back in the day for phone networks and switches and still in use in some places like frame relay and such. Just most people today only think of conventional internet protocols, and what we consider to be wifi and wired ethernet.

Read up on stuff like the CompTIA Network+(pre N10-004 which also talks about Token Ring and older protocols that I don';t think they cover today in the N10-004) and Cisco entry level stuff, and it gives some background into packet switching in itself, and how old dial up modems worked and such. Tons of stuff you can read up with online. Darren did a series on multiplexing, or time-division multiplexing and phone networks and early networking a while back too.

Sorry, but every time I see your name, I think of Dustin Hoffman in Hook... lol...

Thanks DigiP, I have been reading my network+ book, and I would kill for some practical lab apps, but my company laid me off (one of the last that got laid off), and then they tanked... So, I have a lot of free time. I learned most of my tele process from that jolly fellow, Roger, but I can not find his book anywhere,,, heard Bush/Obama took em off the shelf. Though some of it may be deprecated (and minus A LOT OF the material does not need to be posted, ANYWHERE), it had great practical guides that helped me make my first black box, if I recall was the name... perhaps you have that book somewhere around your house, or hard drive for that matter. Could you scan the PHREAK materials... it would be nice to see how much the processes have changed (or maybe still in use).

Thanks Digip, you put that very concisely (I am not that talented to explain certain things). Keep it up!

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Not sure what book you are referring to, but If I am following you, you're looking for the Anarchists's Cookbook?? I don;t think that was ever on book shelves, was only a bbs print or such, not sure. I've never actually read or seen a copy myself, but sure there are torrents of it around the Internet, if thats the one you are referring to. As far as networking side, there are a shit ton of sites with material, and if you wanted to go full on Pirate, plenty of torrented school books on Networking and Cisco stuff for sure, although the amount of legit free information out there, you shouldn't need to go that route. SecurityTUBE and YouTUBE also have a lot of people who do primers and in general classes on networking stuff, such as how the OSI model works, etc, so there are plenty of sites to keep you busy if you want to really dig into this stuff, and plenty of older IPTV shows like hak5 that covered a lot of this stuff. IPTV Archives are currently offline, but I know Famicoman said he was working on getting them back up - http://iptvarchive.cmdline.org/ so bookmark that link for future reference. http://famicoman.com/

http://anarchivism.org/w/IPTV_Archive

Edited by digip
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Yeah... I didn't want to say the title... too many stupid kids now-a-days. Half of it is not hacking, but hurting people by the tens to hundreds... VERY dangerous info... maybe you could edit it to The ******* ******... I have read of what some kids want to do to their schools network, but this could bring a lot worse!

HOOK HOOK HOOK

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Meh, the book and the info, especially the bomb making stuff, is information. Its what you do with information that gets you into trouble. Its why I get into debates with people all the time on stuff, I don't try to preach to others what they should do with information, ethics, etc, you do what you want, but there is a difference, ie: hacker != criminal, yet media at large always coins the phrase with the condemnation of "criminal". I think for the most part, while the stories of the Anarchists Cookbook may lead to criminal activity, its people with criminal minds and ill intent seeking to hurt others that will find those means to do it, whether its in print or word of mouth, its not the information that hurts people, its people that hurt people. Tools and knowledge should not be censored for sake of "protecting" people. A crazy person doesn't need a reason to hurt someone if they so choose to. I knew plenty of kids in high school who made pipe bombs. Many of my friends and I experimented with different explosives at home, but for recreational purposes, not with intent to go blow up our schools.

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It would seem you and I are on the same sentence (same page too broad)... but I just worry about shit that might happen, being a father and all. I read that forum where the kid made a program that is designed to destroy systems. I would kick the living, well, shit-piss-blood out of someone that did that to me (considering I got the chance). But, I do agree, information SHOULD be available; quickly and efficiently.

All in all, I would give chances, but todays' society is not like any society before it... and it is a little nerve racking.

I remember a PB that blew a 2 foot diameter stump into pieces... I don't think my ears hear that frequency anymore, just a static like sound... lol...

Edited by Pwnd2Pwnr
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As soon as you start putting controls in place that limit free speech, and in general, free thinking, you end up with places like WiKi Leaks that make people think they are doing the right thing by exposing everything secret, and in turn go from hero to zero real fast. I applaud Bradly Manning for releasing the Helicopter video as a whistle blower type incident, that showed pure atrocity and the people who we're killed deserved to have their story told, un-edited, and no spin. However, the fact that he gave millions of lines of secret cables, files, etc, stuff he could have never of vetted or read himself, was the dumbest, most ill conceived idea a person, who may have had good intention, could have done. Without knowing WHAT he gave to Wikileaks, he put thousands of military and civilian lives at risk. Has it happened yet? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't info in there, that some foreign state entity, or enemy of ours, would like to get their hands on, and may themselves infiltrate wikileaks as a supporter, or part of their organization, and then turn around and sell all of that info to the highest bidder, if it hasn't already been done. Only time will tell what if anything becomes of the data he gave to wikileaks, and while he did the right thing in the whistle blowing incident related to the chopper, he also had rights and protection from persecution had he followed normal chain of command and things in place to protect whistle blowers for incidents such as that. Would it have been that alone that he leaked and that only, he would have had his day in court already and be out of prison, stripped of uniform and rank most likely, but not where he is now, and not with the potential for the death penalty for complete and utter treason against his country.

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Absolutely agreed. The video only shows the same thing that happens in every war.... break things and kill people. That said, the man betrayed everything that he trained for... especially his country. Not to say that the gunners should not have been charged; but this video could have been given to someone with NO status; maybe even delivered it to the satanic news outlets if he were afraid of retaliation. It is better than the classified info (which we still do not know what is completely) to be seen than troop positions, next of kin... hell... probably passwords and user names to a couple of...ahem... major servers...

After watching the video again, it reminds me of Full Metal Jacket. But, when has there been a war without innocent casualties?

Edited by Pwnd2Pwnr
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All wars have innocent casualties, and each side in general always thinks they are the ones who are in the right, or conflict wouldn't arise, so in a sense, both sides are innocent until they take a life to begin with. The issue I have isn't his whistle blowing as much as it is all the OTHER undocumented stuff he gave to Wikileaks without knowing what it was, which could come back to bite us and our allies in the ass, if not cause more bloodshed. The whole Iraq war was nonsense as far as I am concerned, weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, war with a country that didn't attack us when it was Bin Laden we should have went after, but at the end of the day, you (metaphorically speaking as Bush and the US of A) make a mess of something, you have to also clean up after yourself, which is why we're still there 11 years after 9/11 happened, and they weren't even the ones who attacked us.

With regard to Manning, he did the right and wrong things at the same time, just that the wrong things he did out way the good that he did. It now landed him in prison with no chance of ever leaving. If he doesn't get a death sentence, he'll more than likely, spend the rest of his life in a jail cell anyway, something he had to of known going into this would have been a possible outcome, even if Lamo didn't turn him in, he would probably have gotten caught at some point, and possibly only after exposing and giving away even MORE top secret info he could have gained access to. I don't particularly like what Adrian Lamo did, but he may very well have prevented an even further detrimental hit to our national security by turning Manning in, and while I don't like snitches, he also did what he thought was in the best interest of protecting people, something that he himself will have to live with, while he gets death threats from people all the time for what he did, no one thinks about what might have happened with more access and data Manning may have gotten his hands on and sent off to whomever wanted them.

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Not sure what book you are referring to, but If I am following you, you're looking for the Anarchists's Cookbook?? I don;t think that was ever on book shelves, was only a bbs print or such, not sure. I've never actually read or seen a copy myself, but sure there are torrents of it around the Internet, if thats the one you are referring to. As far as networking side, there are a shit ton of sites with material, and if you wanted to go full on Pirate, plenty of torrented school books on Networking and Cisco stuff for sure, although the amount of legit free information out there, you shouldn't need to go that route. SecurityTUBE and YouTUBE also have a lot of people who do primers and in general classes on networking stuff, such as how the OSI model works, etc, so there are plenty of sites to keep you busy if you want to really dig into this stuff, and plenty of older IPTV shows like hak5 that covered a lot of this stuff. IPTV Archives are currently offline, but I know Famicoman said he was working on getting them back up - http://iptvarchive.cmdline.org/ so bookmark that link for future reference. http://famicoman.com/

http://anarchivism.org/w/IPTV_Archive

I had a copy in high school. There was some neat stuff in it, and a lot of shit that would if you're lucky only take off a hand if done wrong...

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All wars have innocent casualties, and each side in general always thinks they are the ones who are in the right, or conflict wouldn't arise, so in a sense, both sides are innocent until they take a life to begin with. The issue I have isn't his whistle blowing as much as it is all the OTHER undocumented stuff he gave to Wikileaks without knowing what it was, which could come back to bite us and our allies in the ass, if not cause more bloodshed. The whole Iraq war was nonsense as far as I am concerned, weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, war with a country that didn't attack us when it was Bin Laden we should have went after, but at the end of the day, you (metaphorically speaking as Bush and the US of A) make a mess of something, you have to also clean up after yourself, which is why we're still there 11 years after 9/11 happened, and they weren't even the ones who attacked us.

With regard to Manning, he did the right and wrong things at the same time, just that the wrong things he did out way the good that he did. It now landed him in prison with no chance of ever leaving. If he doesn't get a death sentence, he'll more than likely, spend the rest of his life in a jail cell anyway, something he had to of known going into this would have been a possible outcome, even if Lamo didn't turn him in, he would probably have gotten caught at some point, and possibly only after exposing and giving away even MORE top secret info he could have gained access to. I don't particularly like what Adrian Lamo did, but he may very well have prevented an even further detrimental hit to our national security by turning Manning in, and while I don't like snitches, he also did what he thought was in the best interest of protecting people, something that he himself will have to live with, while he gets death threats from people all the time for what he did, no one thinks about what might have happened with more access and data Manning may have gotten his hands on and sent off to whomever wanted them.

Why would this guy have access to this material in the first place? I understand that he was a techie, and aside from the video, how did he have access to those cables? He would have had to have privileges to do so. The chain of command seems WAY off... that goes to show that most attacks happen from within the infrastructure.

Edited by Pwnd2Pwnr
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Why would this guy have access to this material in the first place? I understand that he was a techie, and aside from the video, how did he have access to those cables? He would have had to have privileges to do so. The chain of command seems WAY off... that goes to show that most attacks happen from within the infrastructure.

Yeah, from what I recall, he was in information stuff that his duties gave him access to for his work, and he had clearance and capabilities to access certain things that maybe no one in his group needed to have access to, but you have to remember, as a soldier, your first priority is to defend your nation, not sell it out or in his case, give away its secrets. He was a computer whiz from what I understand and was also part of what he did while in the military, so he had access to the network and data based on what his job was anyway. He abused those powers when he gave all the info to wikileaks, instead of just whistle blowing the helicopter incident, which by law, he would have been safeguarded from prosecution. I think he was just uninformed on his options for one, and two, he was coaxed into doing it by Assange. They say Assange never talks to any of the people who send them info, but its been widely known and documented hes had contact with specific people within Anonymous and other groups, so I wouldn't doubt for a second that Manning had direct contact with Assange at some point, whether Manning knew it was Assange or not doesn't even matter so much as the fact that Manning couldn't have possibly known every line of code and cables, info, top secret data he handed over with what he was doing. Thats just too much data for one person to have vetted every bit of data before sending, and in doing so, who knows what sensitive info was given out or could be used against innocent people later on.
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Does anyone know the size of the chunk he gave away? How many hours of forensics would it take to decrypt, say, a tb of information..

speaking of encryption, did Manning give him the algorithms to decypher the, what I assume, is not clear-text data...? I always heard tales that military encrypts the data... right?

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Back to the original question.. I'm not sure what kind of bandwidth you'd get with these frequencies.

I think its more about the long distance range people in the industry are after, and with the way Television was able to transmit to far places, with all the towers they had in place for repeaters, the same thing could be implemented in the new spectrum. They could probably bounce the signals off cell towers by just added a few pieces of equipment at all of their base stations and thus people like Verizon, would have another monopoly on their hands to flaunt in everyones face. I recall Google was one of the ones that wanted in early on the bidding and testing and wanted to see it used as free wifi but you can bet with them sponsoring it, it would come at some price, namely them offering the free access over their equipment and then harvesting everyones use of said network.
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