The UK Terror plot: what's really going on?

[DLSS]

This is a very good analysis on the current so-called terror plot.

this guy lays it out nicely.

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The UK Terror plot: what's really going on?

August 14, 2006

Craig Murray

I have been reading very carefully through all the Sunday newspapers to try and analyse the truth from all the scores of pages claiming to detail the so-called bomb plot. Unlike the great herd of so-called security experts doing the media analysis, I have the advantage of having had the very highest security clearances myself, having done a huge amount of professional intelligence analysis, and having been inside the spin machine.

So this, I believe, is the true story.

None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb. None had bought a plane ticket. Many did not even have passports, which given the efficiency of the UK Passport Agency would mean they couldn't be a plane bomber for quite some time.

In the absence of bombs and airline tickets, and in many cases passports, it could be pretty difficult to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that individuals intended to go through with suicide bombings, whatever rash stuff they may have bragged in internet chat rooms.

What is more, many of those arrested had been under surveillance for over a year - like thousands of other British Muslims. And not just Muslims. Like me. Nothing from that surveillance had indicated the need for early arrests.

Then an interrogation in Pakistan revealed the details of this amazing plot to blow up multiple planes - which, rather extraordinarily, had not turned up in a year of surveillance. Of course, the interrogators of the Pakistani dictator have their ways of making people sing like canaries. As I witnessed in Uzbekistan, you can get the most extraordinary information this way. Trouble is it always tends to give the interrogators all they might want, and more, in a desperate effort to stop or avert torture. What it doesn't give is the truth.

The gentleman being "interrogated" had fled the UK after being wanted for questioning over the murder of his uncle some years ago. That might be felt to cast some doubt on his reliability. It might also be felt that factors other than political ones might be at play within these relationships. Much is also being made of large transfers of money outside the formal economy. Not in fact too unusual in the British Muslim community, but if this activity is criminal, there are many possibilities that have nothing to do with terrorism.

We then have the extraordinary question of Bush and Blair discussing the possible arrests over the weekend. Why? I think the answer to that is plain. Both in desperate domestic political trouble, they longed for "Another 9/11". The intelligence from Pakistan, however dodgy, gave them a new 9/11 they could sell to the media. The media has bought, wholesale, all the rubbish they have been shovelled.

We then have the appalling political propaganda of John Reid, Home Secretary, making a speech warning us all of the dreadful evil threatening us and complaining that "Some people don't get" the need to abandon all our traditional liberties. He then went on, according to his own propaganda machine, to stay up all night and minutely direct the arrests. There could be no clearer evidence that our Police are now just a political tool. Like all the best nasty regimes, the knock on the door came in the middle of the night, at 2.30am. Those arrested included a mother with a six week old baby.

For those who don't know, it is worth introducing Reid. A hardened Stalinist with a long term reputation for personal violence, at Stirling Univeristy he was the Communist Party's "Enforcer", (in days when the Communist Party ran Stirling University Students' Union, which it should not be forgotten was a business with a very substantial cash turnover). Reid was sent to beat up those who deviated from the Party line.

We will now never know if any of those arrested would have gone on to make a bomb or buy a plane ticket. Most of them do not fit the "Loner" profile you would expect - a tiny percentage of suicide bombers have happy marriages and young children. As they were all under surveillance, and certainly would have been on airport watch lists, there could have been little danger in letting them proceed closer to maturity - that is certainly what we would have done with the IRA.

In all of this, the one thing of which I am certain is that the timing is deeply political. This is more propaganda than plot. Of the over one thousand British Muslims arrested under anti-terrorist legislation, only twelve per cent are ever charged with anything. That is simply harrassment of Muslims on an appalling scale. Of those charged, 80% are acquitted. Most of the very few - just over two per cent of arrests - who are convicted, are not convicted of anything to do terrorism, but of some minor offence the Police happened upon while trawling through the wreck of the lives they had shattered.

Be sceptical. Be very, very sceptical.

source : http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006...k_terror_p.html

[VaKo]

Blair should be shot, he really should. He's done nothing for this country but tie it closer to a raging military backed theocracy (sorry americans, this is actually how your gov. looks from the outside world), try'd to force us to live in fear of imaginary terrorists. Since they came it, the UK has had near 4000 new crimes added to the law books. Its sickening really.

But the worst thing is, they won't tell us what is going on. Everything is kept secret for national sercurity reasons, everything but this vauge idea that we're always 5 seconds from death. We never get an honest, adult explination, and this does have a tendancy to make people wonder.

A friend of mine was talking about the brazilian guy who was shot (11 times in the head), she thought the cops did a good job of protecting us from the terrorist. I had to show her CCTV footage of the event before she would even consider it, and even then she still thought that shooting an unarmed, non-hostile person, "just to be sure" was acceptable. Even though the police lied and tried to cover up what was essentially a murder.

I have muslim friends, and some of them are very worried that one day there all going to be rounded up and sent to camps as an anti terror measure. This isn't some weird little fringe thing, its there parents and grandparents as well. There all shit scared.

[Imperial Wolf]

What I really fear is the hardcore left using these government arrests and similar ones as a justification for their left wing policies they would use to tackle the problem of terrorism. I mean in an age of islamic extremism i sure as hell dont want any liberals making the tough descisions.

Im not scared when I see the government intercepting terrorists or suspected terrorists infact it makes me feel very secure and safe. Without a doubt people will draw parallels with our current political situation with 1984 or V for Vendetta but the truth of the matter is that quite a lot of people will gladly sacrafice civil liberties for the feeling of safety. Im not one of them, I value my civil liberties to an extent, but at the end of the day its a democracy and if people vote for a more totaltarian oriented government then thats up to them.

Of course people should perhaps have a look at the wider picture which is islamic extremism.

People who are following the islamic religion worldwide are getting more and more extreme in their beliefs. Of course the left will blame this on israel and palestine and the war in iraq etc but the reasons, in my opinion, are irrelevant, a man can find reasons for anything all he needs is his own belief in the righteousness of his convictions. I have it, you have it, stalin had it, neo-nazis have it, hippies have it, everyone has it and as such WE are responsible for our actions. I dont care how many reasons someone has to blow up a school or murder civilians YOU CANT BLAME ISRAEL. I dont care how many reasons israel have for blowing up ambulances and killing civilians YOU CANT BLAME LEBANNON.

If a people or a country go to war then thats fine but attacking innocent civilians isnt on. Go to war for glory or land or wealth or for fun as long as you make a point of avoiding civillian casualties at all costs. To be fair i think america and the rest of the coaltion do make an effort to avoid civilian casualties (though probably only because they want to avoid bad publicity) and i dont mind why any country goes to war as long as they take responsibility and conduct it with honour.

Back to islam in this country and i have to say it is the most troublesome religion at the moment. We can all look back in history and see what extremism in any religion can do and I think, at the moment, islam is dangerous. moderate muslims, like christians, acknowledge that elements of their religous texts could be dangerous if read in the wrong context but the problem it is only muslims who are doing this. I dont see jews or budhists or christians blowing themselves up because they dont read too much into hit. Something i noticed while i was in dundee was that many muslims dont make the effort to integrate themselves into the community.

No doubt people will scream 'but look at the crusades' and they would be right to but history is not the point of conversation.

All this is ranting though let me get back on point and if, as i suspect, people wish to skip to a point then this is it...

With regards to the recent terrorist arrests. Well...better the government suspicions are wrong and they were arrested than them being correct and letting them be.

I love my country and my community but sometimes you have to make a choice between national security and civil liberties and at the moment i am prepared to have my and others civil rights interfered with, after all I aint got anything to hide. ;)

[wetelectric]

Its nothing new. The last three so called terror plots were a joke aswell. The scary thing is though this shit could happen to anybody. You could just get picked up, like that...and not heard off again. Like most of these guys will have had nothing to with any plot. Its disgusting.

Remember when they shot that unarmed guy a few months back. Brown skin, muslim..the police were asking if he was a member of the KKK. Its keystone cops. Crazy. I dont think its MI5 or 6, its the special police units that are the worst. I mean, KKK?!! jeebus!

[VaKo]

Imperial Wolf...

Do you actually know any Muslims? I mean as friends, not just the funny looking people who own the corner shop.

There're not extreamists, there normal people. Its like people calling all christians extreamists who murder abortion clinic workers, or burn Harry Potter books because of Pat Roberts or Jerry Fallwell. Most of them are not, they go to church to worship because it makes them feel happy, and they agree roughly with the christian values.

The problem is that the goverment isn't targeting the terrorists (Like the IRA, or ALF), there picking on people because of the color of there skin, or the belifs. Now we have an enviroment where people like you, who by the sounds of it, are very removed from islam, consider it "troublesome", and full of extreamists. Once again, MUSLIMS ARE NORMAL PEOPLE.

They don't want a global conversion to islam, there children don't want to grow up to be suicide bombers, they don't want shari law imposed on people. They want the same things as we do, the just belive in a different set of tenants to WASPs. And we all know what a handful WASPs can be.

[tabath]

I have muslim friends VaKo - one in particular who left Iran and is strongly non-religeous because of the ease with which some of his fellow muslims used it(religeon) to justify violence and terror- in fact he doesn't consider himself a muslim anymore.

I am a WASP and it seems to me you were generalising about me in much the same way the previous poster was generalisong about Islam?

Yes this government is well on the way to creating an state without freedom but I have never voted for the prats and in fact spoiled my ballot last election as they were all a waste of time. We need a new party in this country that isn't stuck in the past or scared of making tough decisions.

Just my two cents worth and no offence intended :)

[VaKo]

I have muslim friends VaKo - one in particular who left Iran and is strongly non-religeous because of the ease with which some of his fellow muslims used it(religeon) to justify violence and terror- in fact he doesn't consider himself a muslim anymore.

Yeah, i've known a few extreamists myself. But what I have seen is that these people and there views are by no means well regarded in there respective comunitys.

I am a WASP and it seems to me you were generalising about me in much the same way the previous poster was generalisong about Islam?

That was my point, any genralization falls apart on closer inspection. People should be taken as the person they are, not by there faith or skin color. As soon as you start genralizing about people, there going to start genralizing about you, and it goes no where good.

My mother is a mostly WASP, and my father is a mongrol of different races if anyone wanted to know.

Yes this government is well on the way to creating an state without freedom but I have never voted for the prats and in fact spoiled my ballot last election as they were all a waste of time. We need a new party in this country that isn't stuck in the past or scared of making tough decisions.

Just my two cents worth and no offence intended :)

True, we need something along the lines of a new party, or a takeover of an existing one. The problem with politics is that its to caught up in partisan divides rather than dealing with the issues. We don't need great leaders, we don't need fearless demigods to protect us from the horrors of the world. What we need is a general management system that makes sure we have a decent education system, good social and medical support systems and to make sure the trash gets picked up. Politicans should concentrate less on being politicans and more on actually running the country in a decent fashion.

[Imperial Wolf]

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/1379

http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf

I dont believe all muslims are extremists and i dont believe i even implied that in my post. The poll above shows that significant portions of the islamic faith are anti-west and significant portions of the islamic faith are pro-west. I dont believe they are all extremists.

What i do believe though is that the islamic faith, as a whole, is interpretted so wrongly by so many people that i feel that it has become dangerous. Moderate muslims turn a blind eye to the blatant racism and hostility that many of their faith show to the west. This hostility will force native british people onto the defensive and as such they will turn the intolerance back onto the muslims who shun them creating a massive divide in britain that will only make matters worse.

I think that perhaps a get with the programme or get out of the country strategy needs to be implimented. I know it may be extreme, harsh even, but when I see radical clerics and british born suicide bombers claiming dole i want to see something done about it.

For me the bottom line is if people from the arab states want to move to this country then they have to be prepared to learn english and swear allegiance to this country. I think the best thing moderate muslims can do is start taking our side instead of the extremist's and perhaps stop the divide.

[cooper]

Read this for a sec:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/fl...et_terror_labs/

They're explaining the trouble with mixing your own liquid explosive on an airplane. Conclusion: Not particularly feasible.

[VaKo]

I dunno, maybe we could stop bombing them for a start?

[cooper]

Where's the fun in that? :twisted:

[Imperial Wolf]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2306994,00.html

I believe that liquid explosives are more feasible than anything else to blow up a plane and that the journalist who wrote the article quite learly let his politics get in the way of his conclusion. But then again impartiality is nearly impossible to come by these days.

[wetelectric]

Being anti 'west' (whatever u mean by this anyways) does not make u a terrorist. If a white guy from this country thinks Israels creation was wrong he's a wacky liberal at most,if the same thing is said by a brown skin muslim....instant terrorist. Especially on skewed analysis of opinion polls. Anti-'west' does not equal pro killing people.

"I think that perhaps a get with the programme or get out of the country strategy needs to be implemented. I know it may be extreme, harsh even, but when I see radical clerics and British born suicide bombers claiming dole i want to see something done about it."

Now this shit is truly retarded. I mean this is the sort of reactionary nonsense that made me stop paying attention to domestic news. This should be on fox or sky news its that good.

Well you do seem to accept that a British person can be Muslim (so your not all bad) but then u go on to say they should be repatriated? huh?

Then in the next paragraph:

For me the bottom line is if people from the Arab states want to move to this country then they have to be prepared to learn English and swear allegiance to this country. I think the best thing moderate Muslims can do is start taking our side instead of the extremist's and perhaps stop the divide.

I mean what the fuk? "swear allegiance to this country"? Jeebus are you sure you don't work for a tabloid?

and whats this 'take our side' shit? Its people;e like you that parrot crap like this you've heard of the radio that are on the wrong side. I believe this attitude is most dangerous. We need a 'war' on intolerance. In such a 'war' what side would u be on? In the explosions on the London subway system what side was the British (who happened to be a Muslim) girl that got killed on mate?

[Imperial Wolf]

Well judging by your jay and silent bob avatar i can see you are a well educated man who knows the difference between a forum debate and 'shit that is truly retarded'.

Look im not on anyone's side. The government is on its toes and feels it needs to be looking to do something regardless for who pays for it.

Many muslims are 100% behind this country and they have nothing but my respect but some mulsims are 100% against this country, a country that has looked after them and offered them a chance to start a fresh. They have nothing but my hate.

Right now I feel that, by looking at the polls, too many muslims are turning against this country and what is going to happen is that the country is going to turn against them. Im not saying that this is a good or bad thing im just saying that its going to happen and if muslims are with us they should join us and shun the extremists who turn their religion into a message of hate.

IMO Many muslims stand back and ignore the problems in their own communities until its too late.

[VaKo]

Well judging by your jay and silent bob avatar i can see you are a well educated man who knows the difference between a forum debate and 'shit that is truly retarded'.

Thats not debate, thats flaming.

The problem is there alienating a large proportion of people, just because of there origions. Have you ever been stopped and searched, than been asked if your legally entitled to be in this country, just because you don't have an english name? I have, and I was fucking born in this country.

[Imperial Wolf]

Thats not debate, thats flaming.

It was retaliation ;)

Ive been stopped and searched a couple of times and I never took offence to it (i didnt think i looked too much like a chav).

The problem here is that i am quite clearly on the right side of the political spectrum and you (and probably about 90% of forum users) are on the left. We'll struggle to agree on anything more than hak5 rocks.

[VaKo]

Left and right wing are out dated concepts. We should move beyond them.

[Imperial Wolf]

hehe judging by the current political scene in britain there seems to be centrists, centrists and more centrists.

[VaKo]

Thats because there all idiot politicans who want to get votes rather than inflict any form of progress on the situation. Yes there are a lot of problems, but mostly that comes from sheer ignorance, like bush not realizing there are at least three types of islam in iraq, who all pretty much hate each other due to a system setup by the british last time we invaded. Its time we move away from the idea of politics, and start dealing with actual problems, without resorting to name calling. If you look at america, the republicans pretty much call anyone who disagrees with them a terrorist, or says there aiding the enemy. And now this has reached the UK, disagree with the goverment and your aiding The Enemy. Which really limits any discussion on any subject, as everyone is trying to prove how much there not a terrorist symperthizer.

I'm a weird case, i think Isreal has a right to defend itself, but I also think Iran should be allowed nuclear power if it wants.

[Imperial Wolf]

but one mans progress is another mans regress. Was banning fox hunting progress? to people who lived in town then yes it was but to the countryside it has had disastrous consequences that I have witnessed first hand.

I suppose if im safe, the economy is strong and a sense of community is prevelant then i dont mind. I know apathy is a terrible attitude but really in the grand scheme of things its all that really matters. I think I will wait until i see a political party with the same core values before i vote again.

[VaKo]

Couldn't give a crap about foxes... but crappy schools and hospitals should probally be looked it. And no, i don't mean yet more performance targets, complicated budgets and more managers.

[wetelectric]

"i seem to be on the right"...he he he...jeebus. Your not anything your just a sheep.

Left, right, blue team, red team.... meaningless. It depresses me that the level of discourse, such as it is in the U.S.A for example ("oh ur a liberal i hate u!" or "oh ur a conservative, i hate u!"), u thrive on. You have no point, u just picked an imaginary side and repeat phrases u believe to represent your 'team'. “oh i think I'll be right wing! yay for me!†ha! People outside this country (U.K) probably won't know, but all this guy (wolf) is doing is quoting *verbatim* things that have been in the papers and on the radio (talksport- John Gaunt /James Whale). It's a joke!

You say things that on the face of it seem ok, but u mix them up with idodic narrative. "I hate people who hate this country"...sounds reasonable (if not a 'chav')... But one u single out muslims two u mix it in with stuff you could find on www.bnp.org.uk. Its ridiculous, 'repatriation', 'them arabs', 'they come to *our* country'........... nutter

I said, it's a joke. no... actually its not. Thank god people like this in the U.K when heard are generally cussed by intelligent people from whatever perspective they may be. But I say its no a joke because when debate, discourse is brought down to this basic unnaturally partisan level. When politicians forgo logic and pander to it (as happens now, but its not as wide spread thank god). u lose freedoms. It becomes easy to pass laws that say its illegal to say this,think this, wear this when you aim the laws at 'them'. agh, why am I talking to you? Your a sheep, i shouldnt be talking to you I should like shave you or something!

I think your a troll to be honest.

[Imperial Wolf]

wetelectric argue with my points dont just have a go at the person saying it, your worse than most politicians :p.

Couldn't give a crap about foxes... but crappy schools and hospitals should probally be looked it. And no, i don't mean yet more performance targets, complicated budgets and more managers.

What do you know? we do agree on something.

[VaKo]

Its all about the ideas and views, not the person. Its not a case of "we disagree on point x so your also wrong on point z and y" its just a case of "your wrong on point x"

[wetelectric]

Home work:

Two of the biggest selling newspapers take the following slant. Which is the most accurate? What gets your blood boiling enough to buy?

1. Israel kills women of children (insert big pic of crying relatives)

2. Hamas kidnap young Israeli soldiers (insert big pic of crying relatives)

Correct Answer: neither.

We get newspapers (part owned by the same companies no doubt) taking one side or the other, red, blue.... ninjas or pirates, right wing left wing. Both slant facts in a way that sells to their particular team. It's not debate, it's theatre- Just like your posts.

"Answer my 'points'", you say? Please You do not 'debate', you parrot. Our domestic news is descending towards the gutter, just to pander people like yourself.

'Answer my points'? I think have answered the main issue here. The issue you probably don't see. The stuff you parrot, or your 'points' as you put it, indicate bad things. Two people can have an intelligent and *logical* debate on various issues and be in total disagreement. But the stuff your coming out with does not stem from logic, it stems from an ill informed tabloid press. If i hadnt heard the radio program your quoting from I might have taken you a bit more seriously....

Your basically the type of guy that when someone points to the moon, your looking at the finger..

eventually people like this will be ruling the country :(