Closure

[moonlit]

Well, I debated with myself over whether to post this, but ultimately I decided I could do someone a favour. It is not intended to be in any way inflammatory and it also may not be absolutely accurate but it is a chronicle of a community that meant a lot of things to a lot of people. I am posting it only for its author and as a historical reference. If it is not found to be of interest then it will of course disappear naturally as obscure, unloved forum posts often do, if it is undesirable then I absolutely appreciate if it is to be removed. I reiterate, however, that it is certainly not intended to spark any form of unrest, unease or disruption and ask that if it inspires such emotion in you that you please ignore it. Finally, this is not my document, I did not write it and it is in no way related to my resignation as a forum administrator. Thanks.

http://slexy.org/view/s2Fpd8ABkI

[Netshroud]

Wow. With some murder and sex it could be a blockbuster.

[markhimself]

Thanks for that moonlit and the author of the article. It closes a lot of questions, especially asked by those who were strong followers of the show and forum from the start, but never went on IRC.

I hope everyone sees this and takes good understanding

And yes psychosis the need for sex and action would make anything a blockbuster movie xD

[psydT0ne]

wow.

i feel betrayed, bemused and bewildered.

[deleted]

I found it rather odd reading this, because I have been around on the forums/IRC since I began watching (Series 1, Ep 2) and I remember a lot of the event and people mentioned in the piece but I have never collectively thought of them together like that. I can remember things like "Oh, BK is being a dick" or the closure of Dev.5 but never collectively as the history of Hak5. It definitely, with some polish, would make a Hollywood movie.

Also, I am sad to see you retire from Administrator Moonlit, you always did a good job.

[Iain]

That's quite an intereting read. I've also been around for quite a while but have never ventured onto IRC. Like DarkBlueBox, I never connected the dots and thought that people come and go and decisions are made for a reason. I realise that the forums and episodes have changed over the years and thought that it was just a matter of everything taking a natural course.

I'll continue to visit as often as I always have done and will also continue watching the episodes, the majority of which I find very interesting. I, too, am sorry to see that moonlit has resigned from being an Administrator but hope to continue seeing his posts.

[VaKo]

As someone who has been involved in Hak5 since the beginning, has run the forums since S1, was an IRC op for a long time and was there for every part of that story, I can say that this is not entirely how I remembered events. For me, the IRC community staff became more and more insular, developed a strong "us and them" mentality (I remember being branded as a traitor) and eventually that community stopped being fun. Some of the stuff that happened, the Snubs photos for instance, was just petty, vindictive and nasty, and I remember how that came to be and who was there.

But it was a wild ride, and fuckit I'm nearly 30 now.

[metatron]

Hak5 has always been the Darran show, featuring whoever he may be friends with at the time. I really don't see the issue, it is his intellectual property (I guess) to do with what he wishes. The show was a bit of fun and IPTV has largely died off with podcasts, I guess what REV3 offers is what the kids want nowadays and what people want to make.

I'm a little older now and there is no point sweating the small stuff.

Edited July 22, 2010 by metatron

[moonlit]

Can't disagree with VaKo and Metatron here, we're all older and hopefully wiser, I'm sure we all learned something along the way, even if it wasn't quite what was intended and for that I can't be angry. I'm sure other viewpoints are available, to steal a phrase from the BBC, but it's a nice look back over the years, for each negative there was probably a positive along the line, and I did enjoy those midnight releases.

Thanks for the kind words about the administrator thing too, I never intended to make a big deal of it, but I appreciate the thanks, may your forumming continue to be as pleasant as ever it was. Cheers guys.

[markhimself]

Hmm, I wonder how long it takes before this is either deleted or read by someone "higher up".

[moonlit]

Hmm, I wonder how long it takes before this is either deleted or read by someone "higher up".

VaKo's higher up. Anyway, given the topic at hand, I'd rather you didn't stir the hive if you wouldn't mind. Just remember the good times. :)

[VaKo]

Darren is the only person who has more pull on the forums than me and my advice to him would be to let it stay. While I don't necessarily agree with the content of the document, or its interpretation of events I think its important not to censor discussion. I personally think that the whole Hak5 IRC saga was a telling lesson about the corrupting nature of group think in conjunction with positions of power in a small community.

[Netshroud]

I personally think that the whole Hak5 IRC saga was a telling lesson about the corrupting nature of group think in conjunction with positions of power in a small community.

Sheesh, you sound like an english teacher. Just don't make me write an essay on it.

[VaKo]

No essays, but you all have to compose a 1 minute speech on the topic without repetition, hesitation or deviation.

[Guest Deleted_Account]

Interesting read. Didn't realize Hak5 had so much uh.. controversy? (is that the right word?). As i personally have only been watching for a little over a year and a half. Good read though.

[Charles]

Hope you still stick around moonlit, even if it's not as an admin.

You've brought some good advice. :)

Good read too.

[Whedgit]

Not every hurdle is an easy one. Especially the ones that look like mountains when we reach them. One thing is for sure: I am glad that hak5 is still around.

May the show continue to find its way around any obstacles that may arise.

Thank you moonlit for your words of wisdom as an admin. I believe that I am not alone when I say I hope to see them in the future.

[H@L0_F00]

Thank you moonlit for your words of wisdom as an admin. I believe that I am not alone when I say I hope to see them in the future.

^^that

Seriously though, I've looked up to you since I've been around. Thank you.

[h3%5kr3w]

Cheers to you moonlit. Being on here about a quarter if not a little closer to a half of the time that that was written about, I have seen a few things. And as you know, I grew up a little.

I hope you stick around too.

And about the fuqhak5 agreement? That is everywhere. I have even found it on Android open source.

Edited July 24, 2010 by h3%5kr3w

[Rkiver]

I've only been watching for around a year, and the drama on IRC has been a bit annoying to be quite honest. As far as I am concerned Hak5 is about Darren and whomever else is on the show, doing tech.

I've met Darren, he's stayed in my home and I for one think he's a decent bloke. All the other "stuff" that has occured since it's inception....

Well think of it this way, internet+people with strong opinions = drama.

I love the show. I love the presenters, I enjoy the segments, and I talk on the current Hak5 irc channel. Beyond that, I try to avoid all the drama.

moonlit, as with anyone who has been an admin for as long as you, you helped mould the forums, and in a way the community. I feel (from what I've seen in my about a year watching) you've done a good job of it.

All the best in whatever you wish to do.

[moonlit]

Though I didn't intend for this thread to be about me, I gotta say thanks again for all your kind words, definitely appreciate them. It's funny really, some people I don't know, saying stuff about something I did which wasn't even a real job, yet it's nice to hear it. I suppose doing anything for 4+ years kinda makes it something. That probably just made no sense, I'm slightly hungover (or maybe still drunk, I can't tell), but basically what I'm saying is thanks. :)

[digip]

Though I didn't intend for this thread to be about me, I gotta say thanks again for all your kind words, definitely appreciate them. It's funny really, some people I don't know, saying stuff about something I did which wasn't even a real job, yet it's nice to hear it. I suppose doing anything for 4+ years kinda makes it something. That probably just made no sense, I'm slightly hungover (or maybe still drunk, I can't tell), but basically what I'm saying is thanks. :)

Some of you (from the community at large over the years, current and non-current members, not pointing fingers) want everything to be the way you demand it to be, that the show would still be like it was in season 1, and the community to be the same way. I think thats just not really mature and causes a lot of conflict. The show has grown and changed, and so has the community, but one thing that we all had in common was our love of technology, and I think that remains today, even with some of the rifts that have come and gone between people.

As for Moonlit, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I think in part, people like you, Vako, and Sparda are part of hak5, even if not in front of the camera, we (or at least I) value your work, input, time and efforts and what you bring to the community.

To me, IRC in itself is its own little world even though some of the community hangs there, but I gather at one time it was more integrated with the show than it is today. It always seemed to me like they didn't want people to join the channel though, cause that was their own little clique of the lite, or people who just didn't like change. The more hak5 grew it seemed the more they tried to further themselves from the show. I always felt like there were people who loved the show who did both the forums and IRC, but majority of the people on IRC wanted to be made to feel like they were somehow more important than the rest of the community, that their ideas were what mattered and that they should be calling the shots, and that in some part still seems to be going on today to some extent.

For me the core is still the forums. Not better or more important than the IRC people, just more open to everyone in general. I think the forums have always been the more welcoming, giving damn near anyone a voice so long as they weren't complete trolls, like K1u was, or violating the basic rules. I think you have done a great job at policing the forums along with the others who have come and gone, while also giving great feedback and support to everyone on here.

As far as who wrote the "closure" article, its not even really important who wrote it, but more important that it is heard. I think it helps keep it real, and at the same time, people can also deal with it in a more mature manner without back room chats or behind closed door meetings. Not everything is a democracy, but I think being able to voice how you feel is important, even if things don't always turn out how you want. Its healthy to get it out.

The show has changed a lot over the years, but I think the message is still clearly the same, just some of us have matured with the show and probably beyond some of what content is on these days. I think if you can remain objective without demanding the show to be a certain way, you will see it more for what it was and still is, instead of what people wish it to be.

Its like anything in life, it will not always stay the same forever, but I don't think it should either.

[moonlit]

First off, nicely written post, could use more of these, and I'm glad to see people putting the effort in to discuss cleanly and peacefully.

As for Moonlit, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I think in part, people like you, Vako, and Sparda are part of hak5, even if not in front of the camera, we (or at least I) value your work, input, time and efforts and what you bring to the community.

Well, thanks again, certainly nice to be recognised even if you don't seek it, but either way I'm glad to have been part of it all and that I've been able to help some people along the way.

To me, IRC in itself is its own little world even though some of the community hangs there, but I gather at one time it was more integrated with the show than it is today. It always seemed to me like they didn't want people to join the channel though, cause that was their own little clique of the lite, or people who just didn't like change. The more hak5 grew it seemed the more they tried to further themselves from the show. I always felt like there were people who loved the show who did both the forums and IRC, but majority of the people on IRC wanted to be made to feel like they were somehow more important than the rest of the community, that their ideas were what mattered and that they should be calling the shots, and that in some part still seems to be going on today to some extent.

I remember when I first got here, Darren said something along the lines of "IRC is a totally different world", I forget the exact quote, but the point is there. He wasn't wrong, the IRC was so much more dynamic, more hectic, energetic and it had a very different mood to it, humour was more free-flowing, people seemed more productive because ideas and thoughts were fired off left and right. As you say, neither the IRC or the forum was "better" but IRC certainly felt more alive to me, but the forum was better suited for longer form ideas and opinions.

As for the insular and cliquey nature of IRC, I think it was a gradual progression. There were some people who believed that Hak5 was going to draw in a "bad" crowd with less difficult but more malicious hacks, over time the community seemed to get less "hardcore". I'll try and explain what I mean, because I don't just mean that the new users weren't "the in crowd" or in any kind of clique.

The remaining experienced and mature members were being diluted by the large influxes of immature, inexperienced, perhaps even morally questionable users. Because of that, whereas before there might've been more technically savvy users to help with a smaller number of people wanting help with stuff, it'd become much more difficult to provide that help, and also to moderate those who were causing issues as numbers increased. The balance tipped, it became very hard to keep from becoming overwhelmed, and very hard for those of us who were able to help to divvy up time for people needing it.

Another factor was that some of the new guys appeared because of certain hacks on the show and often wanted something for nothing. Generally I think the IRC was welcoming, but sometimes people would appear very ungrateful, they wanted peoples' time and effort to help them in some frivilous and malicious goal and would become obnoxious when they didn't get it, this is partially why there was a ban on discussion of those hacks. Fewer of these people wanted to contribute back to the community and this is part of the reason that people disliked both the hacks and the people asking for them. Sure, it's bad to paint everyone with the same brush, but it's difficult not to when so many people appeared that way.

For me the core is still the forums. Not better or more important than the IRC people, just more open to everyone in general. I think the forums have always been the more welcoming, giving damn near anyone a voice so long as they weren't complete trolls, like K1u was, or violating the basic rules. I think you have done a great job at policing the forums along with the others who have come and gone, while also giving great feedback and support to everyone on here.

I'd say the forum always had a lot more structure, it was less volatile and more under control. Not that the alternative is necessarily a bad thing, but stability does tend to keep things a lot more smooth running.

As far as who wrote the "closure" article, its not even really important who wrote it, but more important that it is heard. I think it helps keep it real, and at the same time, people can also deal with it in a more mature manner without back room chats or behind closed door meetings. Not everything is a democracy, but I think being able to voice how you feel is important, even if things don't always turn out how you want. Its healthy to get it out.

Personally it makes a lot more sense to me, because over recent months and years, a lot of people have been trying to express things they felt about Hak5 the show and Hak5 the community and I believe it helps to have a coherent stream of thought as opposed to enraged and insane outbursts, it's a lot easier to follow and understand a point of view if it's laid out logically and with muted emotion.

The show has changed a lot over the years, but I think the message is still clearly the same, just some of us have matured with the show and probably beyond some of what content is on these days. I think if you can remain objective without demanding the show to be a certain way, you will see it more for what it was and still is, instead of what people wish it to be.

Indeed, I think a lot of us have matured in many different ways and though it's easy to point at the show and say that the content has become more tailored to those less experienced (I don't think this is necessarily bad), it's also true that many of us have progressed onto more technical or more in-depth projects, especially those who prefer to learn by themselves, so the show will inevetably appear more basic.

Its like anything in life, it will not always stay the same forever, but I don't think it should either.

Quite agree, I certainly don't oppose the evolution of the show, my only complaint was how it seemed to begin as a parody (uber leet lego warez hard drive enclosure) and become what it appeared to parody (usb hacks, interceptor, etc). I no longer watch the show, but I believe that if you're going to use this stuff, you could at least learn how it works on a lower level, because then you'll learn basic theories and concepts you could use for other projects rather than just taking someone's prepackaged application or piece of hardware and using it merely as a practical joke, it feels like a mockery of those who do spend a very long time learning important concepts in order to build their own knowledge and expand their own abilities. All a matter of opinion though, I'm sure people disagree with that way of thinking, I can't change anyone's mind if they think what I just said is a pile of bunk, all I can do is say what I believe.

[Netshroud]

<thunderous applause />

[dd3]

Hehe i'd say let this post be here, even tho the writer didnt get any of the part about me/zone9/awesomeirc correct, and alot missing out really :) anyways youre wellcome to ask and i can explain the parts he got wrong :)