The War in Lebanon

[rFayjW98ciLoNQLDZmFRKD]

I'm sick of hearing about all these conficts, why does mini me in N. Koreia want to bomb the US. Why are we in the middle east, switch to ethonal/Hydrogen/Electric and 98% of the middle east is not our problom.

$0.02 deposited

you're a typical proof of American Ignorance - brother!

open up a bit . it won't hurt

I would, but I dont give a s#@t about the differance between Iraq and Iran. I care more about how the dmca is scewing America.

sure....

now go back play with your toys

I will, jus call me when WWIII starts, oh wait, already hapening. Fox news reported it.

[Ddeere2]

This is in a sence WWWIII. Not many people know it, but we have troops fighting with israel. and if israel does attack iran, it would give us a reason to go into iran also, to get rid off the nukes they have. like in iraq, we did find wmds. but the president took the blame of saying we didn't find any, because the stupid public would want to know how we found it, just be glad we got rid of them. Who do you think found Suddam, not the regular army, but special ops. They don't want the glory of finding them, because they don't like publicity, that's why you never hear of Delta Force, or the Rangers. This war in Lebanon is in someway justified, it would of never happened if they left each other alone. why can't they get along, i'm thinking they are doing this to try and bring the US into this war. the thing with north korea, we don't really have to bother with, he is not so much a threat as cuba.

[VaKo]

Cuba? A threat? BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! What they going to do? Samba you to death? Sell you a antique car? Have a parade? You do realise america got pissed at them when they decided to kick out the american gangs fucking the country and taking the cash back to the states?

You hear about the deltas, rangers and seals all the time, they had fucking emeded reporters for this last outing to the sandbox.

Israel have alread said they would directly and militarily support any action by the lebonese gov directed at hizbulla, providing them with the sercurity they need to take on these terrorists. Since Lebenon has been trying to get rid of them for years anyway, but hasn't been able to they might just be hoping that Israel can.

Iran does not have nukes, there 10 years away from being capable to make them. What they want is reactors, for power. We have NO INFORMATION THAT CONTRADICTS THIS, BEYOND IRAN BEING RULED BY A MAD MAN.

There were no WMD's found in iraq beyond forgoten stuff from the iran/iraq war and earlyer. Iraq had no capability to make any more either.

North Korea are nothing, and both china and japan will step on them if they try anything. They know this. There missile tests are the international equvilant of waving your dick about for attention.

Your so wrong its not even funny.

[Sparda]

I'll be honist, I generaly don't keep up with goverment affers, and I don't 100% know what is happening in Lebenon.

Any way, so, the British (us) are evacuating all internationals? Which is several thousand people... so knowing that they send lots of battle ships to collect them. If I was in charge obviusly I would have sent milatery forces in the form of battle ships and what not, but I would have also commendered (one way or another) a P&O ferry and sent that, with a big escort obviusly. It can carry alot more poeple then any battle ship, and it would allow for every one to be evacuated in one go! May be I'm slightly mad but hay. Any thoughts?

[VaKo]

Think there only shuttling people to mil-base on cyprus (where we can fly them back home normally or let them wait it out), then there going to stick around for a bit, just in case.

[Ddeere2]

I'm not wrong, i saw the reports. Iraq did have wmds, but not a really large amount. but a good size amount. i know what i'm talking about, my dad was with the rangers for more 10 years and he told me there was no such thing as reporter's in there. you only heard about them a few times, i yet to see delta, the rangers, or the navy seals on the news. and yes, iran does have nukes, or we wouldn't be pressuring them to stop their enrichment, we do have the information about this, and the goverment haven't told the public this because the public can't handle this.

[omega_ion]

No. Iran does not have nukes. They are attempting to head down a path which can lead them to producing their own nukes however. I think the public seems to be handling North Korea having nukes and testing out ballistic missles quite fine. You don't see mass evacuations of California or Alaska, do you? Why would knowing that Iran, a country without ICBMs, has nuclear weapons (especially when Israel is a closer target) be harder for the public to handle then what Kim Jong is doing, who has Nuclear devs, is actively testing ICBM technology, and is acting like a madman?

[rFayjW98ciLoNQLDZmFRKD]

I found the perfect solution for the middle east, orbiting brain lasers:

and

cyber goats, all powered by linux. The problom with the middle east is that it is running Windows 3.1. I needs a reboot once in a while, or even better, run linux.

[VaKo]

Bullshit, WMD was the entire PR campaign behind the war, they told us they had WMD, in large amounts, ready to go in 45mins. Years later, show me where they are, show me the CNN, BBC or Al Jazeera reports where they found WMDs. You can't claim they kept it away from the huddleing masses because it would scare us, because that was the entire fucking point of the war. What they found was the odd pile of old shit forgotten after the iran/iraq war, but since that stuff only has a shelf life of a few years, it wasn't usable. They found no factorys, or modern WMD's, or anything made after the war back in 91.

Iran wants nukes because traditionally, for the last 3000 years its ruled the middle east. Arabs are not cohesive, and the shia/sunni differences run deep. Lebeonon is country which is sick of the iranian influence. Thats why there hasn't been a huge backlash against israel from other arab states, apart from iran and syria, there all sick of hizbulla.

However, that doesn't mean they have them, they just don't have the tech, and the worlds most advanced inteligence community cannot prove that they have. America is itching to take iran down a peg or 2, so if they had pictures of nuke weapons plants or evidence of testing, they would be in the UN building jumping up and down screaming for action. However, they aren't and they don't. You cannot just announce that someone is The Enemy and start a war these days, to many people asking to many questions.

As for your dad being in the rangers, I know there are a lot of secret missions, but in these days of PR and info-managment coupled with a low public opion of the war, when we win, we tend to tell people about it. And yes the seals did have emebded reporters, i have a video of FOX news showing it.

And regarding nukes in general, its one thing to build one (given the right kit and materials i'm guessing it would take MIT physics dept. about a week to become a nuclear power), but its another thing to produce them reliabley and combat depolyable in large enough numbers to make a difference. N. Korea knows that china will not tolerate it attacking america or japan, as nuclear war is bad for buisness. As it is they've had international banking cut off, and china is openenly threatening them with loss of all aid.

[VaKo]

Good article which explains the current situation quite concisely:

How do you stop rockets fired from a hijacked state?

That's a complex question, but Israel must answer, or risk suffering the most drastic of consequences -- its own demise.

Appreciating the thorny, multi-dimensional difficulties Israel confronts -- from bitter house-to-house battles to the highest levels of international diplomacy -- begins with a basic understanding of the Katyusha rocket Hezbollah fires at Haifa and other Israeli cities.

I should say Katyusha-type, for the rocket Hezbollah employs out-ranges Russia's World War II Katyushas and the improved models Moscow later aimed at NATO ground units in Western Europe.

Even the updated versions are "dumb" -- unguided "barrage" or "area weapons." The dumb-but-deadly rockets are not fired at specific targets, unless "Haifa" and "Tel Aviv" are considered specific targets.

When fired from positions in southern Lebanon or Gaza, extended-range Katyushas threaten anywhere from 60 to 70 percent of Israel's population. Every Israeli citizen may soon be a bull's-eye -- Hezbollah leaders boast of striking "beyond, beyond Haifa." Indeed, there are indications that longer-range rockets are being employed. NATO handbooks once referred to these rockets as "FROG-type" -- Free Rocket Over Ground. Some can carry chemical warheads.

As range increases, these unguided rockets "scatter" over a wider and wider surface area. In the case of northern Israel, Hezbollah is clearly targeting predominantly civilian zones. If a rocket hits a hospital in the civilian area, it hits a hospital. Hezbollah's attacks on Haifa -- especially compared to Israeli attacks in Gaza and Lebanon, which typically utilize modern precision weapons -- are quite indiscriminate.

But then Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrullah, and the mad mullahs of Iran who arm, finance and guide him, believe the whole of Israel is a target, one Iran indicates it will hit some day with another area weapon: a city-busting nuclear warhead.

In the past week, 1,400 rockets have hit Israeli cities, most from firing positions inside Lebanon.

But now for the layer of complexity: Hezbollah hides these weapons among apartment houses and in villages, nesting rockets in Lebanese neighborhoods.

Hezbollah controls these neighborhoods -- not the Lebanese government.

In other words, Israel suffers rocket attacks from a Lebanon that "is not quite Lebanon" in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from "somewhere," but Hezbollah's "somewhere" is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a peculiar form of failed state. It's not the madhouse of Somalia or the impoverished dreg of Zimbabwe, rather, Lebanon is a hijacked state.

Lebanon's status as a hijacked state will continue so long as the Lebanese government cannot control Hezbollah -- and control means disarm and demobilize.

So Hezbollah attacks Israel with ever-more-powerful, longer-range rockets, then hides behind the diplomatic facade of the greater Lebanese nation state.

Iran and Syria -- the powers behind Hezbollah -- then appeal to the United Nations (a product of the Westphalian "nation-state" system) to condemn Israel for attacking Lebanon -- when Israel is attacking Hezbollah, which "is and is not Lebanon."

Thus terrorists and terror-empowering nations, like Iran and Syria, abuse the nation-state system -- or exploit a "dangerous hole" in the system.

Everybody's got to be somewhere, but maps and UN seats and press bureaus don't make an effective nation state; they are the trappings of state-dom. Weaknesses in the Westphalian system exist, in part because it has never been a complete system. (The Westphalian system evolved from the Treaty of Westphalia (1648) and the series of peace settlements that ended the Thirty Years' War in Europe.) Westphalia's "nation-state" system has always faced "gaps" (anarchic regions) and "failed states" (which are often collapsing tribal empires with the trappings of modernity, not the institutions).

Israel says disarming Hezbollah is one of its objectives. But to truly achieve that goal -- to stop the rockets, in any permanent way -- means ending Iran's and Syria's ability to hijack Lebanese neighborhoods.

And that means holding Iran and Syria responsible for hijacking Lebanon and supporting Hezbollah's rain of rocket terror. Holding Iran and Syria responsible may well mean taking the war to Tehran and Damascus.

http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/20067190426.asp

[degoba]

I'm not wrong, i saw the reports. Iraq did have wmds, but not a really large amount. but a good size amount. i know what i'm talking about, my dad was with the rangers for more 10 years and he told me there was no such thing as reporter's in there. you only heard about them a few times, i yet to see delta, the rangers, or the navy seals on the news. and yes, iran does have nukes, or we wouldn't be pressuring them to stop their enrichment, we do have the information about this, and the goverment haven't told the public this because the public can't handle this.

Exactly what reports did you see? Iran is nowhere near able to produe the enriched uranium it would take to build a nuclear bomb. There were never any reports that weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. In fact that is what has many Americans and the rest of the world outraged. We are spending billions on a war which seems to have no justification.

Take this into account. We are spending something like 84 billion dollars a year on the war. If you were to take a years worth of spending you could completely revamp this nations healthcare system in a matter of months.

As for your last statement about the public not being able to handle this. Im terribly sorry but the public is the government. That is the whole purpose of a democracy. A government representative of the PEOPLE. As a citizen who happens to be indirectly funding this war with his taxes it is well within my right to know what is going on, and whether or not these justifications are in fact true.

[debianuser]

Good article which explains the current situation quite concisely:

How do you stop rockets fired from a hijacked state?

That's a complex question, but Israel must answer, or risk suffering the most drastic of consequences -- its own demise.

Appreciating the thorny, multi-dimensional difficulties Israel confronts -- from bitter house-to-house battles to the highest levels of international diplomacy -- begins with a basic understanding of the Katyusha rocket Hezbollah fires at Haifa and other Israeli cities.

I should say Katyusha-type, for the rocket Hezbollah employs out-ranges Russia's World War II Katyushas and the improved models Moscow later aimed at NATO ground units in Western Europe.

Even the updated versions are "dumb" -- unguided "barrage" or "area weapons." The dumb-but-deadly rockets are not fired at specific targets, unless "Haifa" and "Tel Aviv" are considered specific targets.

When fired from positions in southern Lebanon or Gaza, extended-range Katyushas threaten anywhere from 60 to 70 percent of Israel's population. Every Israeli citizen may soon be a bull's-eye -- Hezbollah leaders boast of striking "beyond, beyond Haifa." Indeed, there are indications that longer-range rockets are being employed. NATO handbooks once referred to these rockets as "FROG-type" -- Free Rocket Over Ground. Some can carry chemical warheads.

As range increases, these unguided rockets "scatter" over a wider and wider surface area. In the case of northern Israel, Hezbollah is clearly targeting predominantly civilian zones. If a rocket hits a hospital in the civilian area, it hits a hospital. Hezbollah's attacks on Haifa -- especially compared to Israeli attacks in Gaza and Lebanon, which typically utilize modern precision weapons -- are quite indiscriminate.

But then Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrullah, and the mad mullahs of Iran who arm, finance and guide him, believe the whole of Israel is a target, one Iran indicates it will hit some day with another area weapon: a city-busting nuclear warhead.

In the past week, 1,400 rockets have hit Israeli cities, most from firing positions inside Lebanon.

But now for the layer of complexity: Hezbollah hides these weapons among apartment houses and in villages, nesting rockets in Lebanese neighborhoods.

Hezbollah controls these neighborhoods -- not the Lebanese government.

In other words, Israel suffers rocket attacks from a Lebanon that "is not quite Lebanon" in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from "somewhere," but Hezbollah's "somewhere" is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a peculiar form of failed state. It's not the madhouse of Somalia or the impoverished dreg of Zimbabwe, rather, Lebanon is a hijacked state.

Lebanon's status as a hijacked state will continue so long as the Lebanese government cannot control Hezbollah -- and control means disarm and demobilize.

So Hezbollah attacks Israel with ever-more-powerful, longer-range rockets, then hides behind the diplomatic facade of the greater Lebanese nation state.

Iran and Syria -- the powers behind Hezbollah -- then appeal to the United Nations (a product of the Westphalian "nation-state" system) to condemn Israel for attacking Lebanon -- when Israel is attacking Hezbollah, which "is and is not Lebanon."

Thus terrorists and terror-empowering nations, like Iran and Syria, abuse the nation-state system -- or exploit a "dangerous hole" in the system.

Everybody's got to be somewhere, but maps and UN seats and press bureaus don't make an effective nation state; they are the trappings of state-dom. Weaknesses in the Westphalian system exist, in part because it has never been a complete system. (The Westphalian system evolved from the Treaty of Westphalia (1648) and the series of peace settlements that ended the Thirty Years' War in Europe.) Westphalia's "nation-state" system has always faced "gaps" (anarchic regions) and "failed states" (which are often collapsing tribal empires with the trappings of modernity, not the institutions).

Israel says disarming Hezbollah is one of its objectives. But to truly achieve that goal -- to stop the rockets, in any permanent way -- means ending Iran's and Syria's ability to hijack Lebanese neighborhoods.

And that means holding Iran and Syria responsible for hijacking Lebanon and supporting Hezbollah's rain of rocket terror. Holding Iran and Syria responsible may well mean taking the war to Tehran and Damascus.

http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/20067190426.asp

thanks for the clarifications....

[omega_ion]

Well, I think, if Israel goes ahead and starts massive ground ops in South Lebanon, I think we'll be in for a much more prolonged engagement..

If Israel is able to deal a major blow to Hezbollah during this escalation of violence, then I think that the violence is worth it. If they do nothing more than inflame more muslims into joining Hezbollah, well, then they've failed.

[VaKo]

I think it depends on wether they're allowed to finish the job. I will say that the current situation is not pretty, and by no means do I fly any particular flag for israel. But given the situation i belive they have little or no recourse. As for inflaming the muslim world, has anybody noticed that there was more noise about the muhammed cartoons than there has been so far about israel.

For anyone who has problems with israels current methodolgy, try this simple expermient. Find a normal non agressive friend, and slap them round the face, see how many times you can do it before you get punched. No the agression is not right, but with the history the israels have you can see why there acting to agressivly.

This is unlikely to happen, but if israel invites lebenese troops to joint operations we could see the tide turn for the better.

[omega_ion]

I agree, Israel should extend an offering to the Lebanese military (more for politcal reasons than for actual military help, which they can't provide much of), because if the Lebanese military allies with Hezbollah, like they're threatening to do, it would be a major politcal and moral loss for Israel.

I think Iran is at the center of two of the bad things going on. Apparently, at that last missle test in the DPNK, there were a couple Iranian scientists there to see if the North Korean missles were any good. Two, Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas with money and arms which they get from North Korea and Russia, which gets used against Israel, destabilizing the region.

Is it a conincidence that this violence broke out right when the G8 summit was about to discuss Iran's nuclear program? I think not.

[TennBikeBerk]

I just got back today from spending 10 days in Israel.

I know first hand that the situation that is goign on right now is not pretty, but I stand behind Israel and the course it has pursued.

Before I started my trip, Lebanon and Israel were getting along just fine - problems were basically isolated to the Gaza Strip with Hamas, and things were satisfactory along the northern border. That however, changed with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, after the Hezbollah crossed over the internationally-accepted border, which is most certainly an act of war.

While you might think Israel's response is disproportionate, I think it is appropriate. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, of which the Lebanese government and citizens have very little to no control over. Israel has had it with the Hezbollah, and is ready for them to stop being a threat to the state of Israel. Israel would glady sign a cease-fire, should their soldiers be returned, and the Hezbollah disbanded from Lebanon. Unfortunately, this is not close to happening, so Israel is doing it's best to make things happen, with as minimal damage as possible.

Unlike the Hezbollah, which targets the civilian population of Israel - merely aiming rockets at Israeli cities - the Israeli Defense Forces try their very hardest to only target the Hezbollah and minimize civilian casualties. They have requested that the civilians of many towns leave and head for safer places. It is understood that this is hard to do, given the circumstances, but no armed conflict is ever easy.

I feel for the Lebanese civilians who are caught in the midst of this battle between Israel and the Hezbollah. It is quite unfortunate that they are suffering consequences of a group that they do not have control over.

While Israel regularly has minimal international support, I find it refreshing to hear that three Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan) have spoken out agaisnt the Hezbollah's actions.

I am aware that it is believed that Iran and Syria are playing somewhat of a role in this whole situation, but I am not sure how that affects the politics. Right now, this mostly seems to be a conflict between Israel and the Hezbollah, with many Lebanese civilians who aren't supporters of the Hezbollah, unfortunately being caught in the crossfire. I hope that this does not escalate into something any larger than it already is, and that Syria and Iran not get involved, as that could make things pretty darn complicated (as if they aren't complicated enough already).

[TennBikeBerk]

I forgot to add that I'm a bit puzzled why the thread is titled as it is. Why is the the war in Lebanon and not Lebanon and Israel (if you are going to call it a war that is)?

[Garda]

you know that bit that i TOTALLY love the best about the current conflict in lebanon. The fact that the US gave Israel a week before they got behind the europeans in voicing disapproval of their actions.

hahaha that is so funny. Get this! it's totally ok to kill people, just get all the killing done before next wednesday, otherwise we're going to have to say that it was bad that you killed all of those people.

if you think that something as completely retarded as this can only be made up, it was in the news just a couple of days ago

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1823817,00.html

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/ite...o_bomb_lebanon/

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/07/...3166455516.html

let's be honest, all politicians are completely heartless evil people.

the fact that they can in such a whimsical, and careless manner just decide whether a whole bunch of men and civillians are going to die, is something completely horrible.

[TennBikeBerk]

Since when does the US disapprove of Israel's recent actions?

From what I have heard, Bush has stated that Hezbollah is responsible for this outbreak (because of the kidnapping/border crossing) and asked Israel to use restraint. He did say that Israel has the right to defend itself, and that its actions are justified.

[omega_ion]

Let's see a yesterday the house nearly unanimously voted (save 8 votes) to voice its support of Israel's actions, that seems like a pretty solid approval for Israel defense. Sure, we're sending Condi Rice over there sometime this/next week, but probably once the fighting stops. The US has great interest in seeing Israel destroy/weaken Hezbollah.

I stay by Israel's actions, but I can understand fully if a generation of Lebanese has a certain animosity towards Israel.