What do you guys think of the Cap and Trade Proposal.

[bob_s]

If you don't know what I am talking about

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/06/2...Bill?art_pos=20

Me I see a problem with this

SMALLER Cars... Um ya ok how many people can fit in there? 4 at most.. ok so a family of 4 could fit but what if a kid is having a freind over etc. Or what about 5 or more guess your sol (got to save the world from global warming ;)).

Also, wouldn't this raise taxes, (I thought Obama said he wouldn't, oh ya he lied and people believed him (POLITICIANS LIE ALL OF THEM!))

[ssmithisme]

If they were truely concerned with the enviroment we would have solar/wind powered cars.

We do NOT have them because they would be to cheap to cheap to produce and operate and therefore the companys would not make money.

They are not concerned with the enviroment they are concerned with their wallet.

[bob_s]

I would still need an audio system to fake the noise of a gasoline enginge and it would have to be as fast as gas cars toaday (not to mention priced cheaper or the same).

[h3%5kr3w]

I only have one thing to say: "Fuck fuck fuckity fuck fuck!" -eric cartman

[Seshan]

LOL, Dude it wouldn't be limited to just 4 person cars. Look at England. And the rest of Europe. For some reason most North Americans think they need a big ass pick up truck to drive there kids to school and pick up groceries. A lot of other countries have cars way smaller then ours, and they get along fine. It's people with the mentality like you that can't see that you don't need a pick up truck or a big ass hummer to do something a small car can do.

[h3%5kr3w]

Hell my car is like a matchbox and so is my wallet.. Wanna know anything else?

Bottom line I AM NOT paying till im homeless because poor dumb shit watched the previews to 2012 and Day after tomorrow. Wanna know why we Americans do not like this? Because it's not AMERICAN. The American way has always been to better ourselves, our lives, and our futures. This does NOT include paying politicians tons of money so they can make money on shit that they sell BACK to us for more than what it's worth.

Not only is it just plain un-american, it's also against our rights. This is the government not only interfering with business, this is the government interfering with our lives.

Bottom line... If I want to buy it, and I have the means to buy it then I will. The government should not be trying to stop me, weather I want a car that runs off of dust mite farts, or 1 mpg of gasoline. (though I do hate hummers, and people with super huge vehicles that they dont do shit with... but most of the time it's because they act like they are better because of the fact they have huge ass vehicles)

The real point of this though is the fact of, we will have to pay for it.. I'll say that again. WE will have to pay for it. Not Chevy, Not Chrysler, Not Big corporates that have billions of dollars.. us.

Now I am all for change and all for the better of us, our kids, etc.etc.etc. but we can accomplish this by competition in the market and buying power. Alot of people prefer foreign vehicles over American made ones. Why? because they LAST longer, and the TCO is cheaper, AND usually get compairable if not more gas mileage. Personally I dont give a damn if I drive a bus that runs on air, but with this bill, I'll be paying for the entire process from start to finish instead of a company that finally said 'ok.. we really need to figure out on our budget how to build this'

Also, the whole power frenzy... WHY?! There is nothing wrong with using tons of power. Don't look at us, look at the power companies, and everybody that doesnt want nuclear power. The technology has been there for close to a century, has been perfected for the most part and is close to as clean as clean can get, but everybody doesnt want it because of what happened in chernobyl and long island. Screw ups. Thats what you have laws and restrictions for now that were not so tightly in place back then.

If your living in America you know your power bill is way too high. And what's worse, is if you live in an old home or like me, a rental with a landlord that could care less if you have holes in the floor, your bill is in some months, up to 3x higher than it should be. I cant afford any other place to stay or else I would, and there are enough people out on the street. Why the hell would anyone be doing this besides for MORE MONEY?!

[bob_s]

Um not a truck or a hummer, but more like a van.

Oh and ya the goverments in Europe are GREAT cameras on every street thanks to your goverment (yes they have cameras in america etc but it seems your goverment thinks you are a bunch or theives (kinda like ours thinks we are terrorists (Obama administartion included!!)))

Oh and goverment should be so intertwined with society... Godda love that universal healthcare... Who is paying for it? Oh you, kinda like private health care except you could be paining more than your fair share. Why does the goverment have universal health care? I thought a goverment should protect its citizens (police, fire, ambulances (FOR getting you to a hospital (You still pay for you OWN treatment (it is YOUR's NOT Your neighbors!)))).

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31841

[Seshan]

Um not a truck or a hummer, but more like a van.

They have small vans too.

[sem1845]

it's trading jobs and higher energy bills for a cleaner environment

[bob_s]

Um seshan SMALL vans, some people need big vans but the now goverment run companies will not have that, so then what become China limit you to one kid otherwise it is aborted even though you find that thing (abortion) morally reprhensable? GOOD IDEA!! (extreme sarcasm!).

PS. Where is Opera's spell check

[h3%5kr3w]

kinda like ours thinks we are terrorists

I have nothing against europe.. Food's good there. Nice weather I heard.

it's trading jobs and higher energy bills for a cleaner environment

You hit the nail on the head, except for one thing... The environment will not be any cleaner than it is now, and it will never be. Even if it is, this will just turn into a spiral effect that the gov. and the environmentalists will shove down our throats until they find something else to make money on. Unfortunately this is the biggest money making pyramid scheme that has ever been dreamed up, so buckle up kiddies, your in for a real crappy ride for the rest of our lives.

Oh that 22" flatpanel you bought last year.. yeaahh.. well you'll need to replace that one with this one that is 12" smaller and takes less electricity to use.. oh, and btw, that will be 3x what you paid for the previous one.

Oh that car you barely bought for $6000 a couple years ago that get's 28mpg.. yeahh... well, you will need to trade that too for this hybrid that get's 45mpg.. oh, and btw, that will be around $30,000 with no options, but you need to get it quick since gas will be going up to $14 per gallon soon.

Oh that 12mbps internet connection you have.. well the servers are sucking too much electricity, so in turn we are going to be making everyone go with virtualized servers and routers running @ half the power but unfortunately it's going to cost the telco/cable companies billions to implement.. so were going to cap your net connection to around 800 megs per month and charge you 2x what your paying now.

Oh that house you bought and your striving to pay for? Well we are now requiring new insulating materials to be implemented to cut your power consumption, which will take around $5000 for very small houses and going up as the cubic feet increases, and btw, if you don't your insurance will be going up around $6000/year, and your power bill will be going up considerably as well..

need any more examples?

[bob_s]

h3%5kr3w you articulated what I couldn't :). Also the terrorist thing was about the good old USA, my home!

PS

What do you guys thinks of a bumper sticker that has a siloute of Abraham Lincoln with words 'Freed the slaves' and another silhoute of Obama with 'Enslaved our freedom (as well as lied to us (expected))' Then the American people who believed Obama with the words 'Didn't do there resarch gulable idiots.' :)

[h3%5kr3w]

heh, they wouldnt do anything different. They will just call us whackos just like we have called each other before. We can't do anything at this point. Everything in America is out of control of us. Has been for quite some time. Not enough government officials know what's best for us, just what's best for them.

See seshan, I am venting alot right about now, and it's not aimed at you particularly. But there IS a major difference between the United States and say.. England for example. They are comfortable with the smaller cars. But the big difference is that they can pay for them. We can't because it will not be cheaper, it will be more expensive. Everything in America is more expensive when you think about the comfort level difference. Now I know that England uses less power, blah blah blah. Ever looked at the forecasts for England? It doesnt get very hot does it? 1/2 of the United states get's at least 90+ degrees F. each and every year. If we start restricting power consumption and things of that nature, many people will die of heat stroke. I will say that air conditioning has changed the human race. I feel it's the most powerful and life changing technology since power itself. And because of that, there are many people who since they have been in an air conditioned environment all their life, that their bodies cannot tolerate the heat.

[Zimmer]

Couldn't agree with you guys more, well besides Seshan.

[digip]

Im reading this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/25/t...e_n_221233.html and I see more about stopping pollution and nothing about the size of cars. Can someone link me the NEWS (Not forum or opinionated posts) article where it talks about car sizes being reduced for American vehicles?? It only stats would put smaller cars ont he road, but you don't have to buy the smaller cars if you don't want them. It only saves you money to do so when buying cars better on gas, refardless of their size.

The size of a car has nothing to do with efficient emissions of factories.

If you made a stretch Toyota Echo or Prius limo, I am pretty sure it would be good on gas and hold a lot of people while low on emissions. I know that isn't exactly a great analogy, but size vs pollutants coming out of the tailpipe are two different things, and all of you are getting worked up over what? Where is this article that states the "cap" pertains to the size if your vehicle?

Taxes aren't being raised on us, but on the companies who are the bigger poluters. They want to put a cap on how much they can polute per year, and charge them when they go over the cap. The companies have several options, or trade offs as they call it "cap and trade", but the most obvious is investing in greener technology to reduce emissions. People hear the word emissions and goverment and all of the sudden you think they want to take your cars away and raise your taxes.

Putting smaller cars on the road does not mean they are more efficient either. We need better fuel efficient cars to begin with. They estimate that if costs on the companies who go over their cap and have to pay fine, will pass that cost on to the consumers. This works out to about $175.00 a year they say. But if they can reduce emissions and stay within the cap while cutting costs, there should be no need to charge the consumer more. The only people who would end up charging more anyway are the gas companies, and they would probably do this without the cap...

[VaKo]

American cars are pretty crap, all the ones I've seen show a huge desire to haul a ton of useless metal around and despite the massive engine the performance is utterly shit. Newsflash yanks, you can have a decently sized family car that is fuel efficient, safe and sensibly sized.

But the correct view is that petrol engines are a joke, the design should have been thrown out 50 years ago. Use cleaner energy portfolios of wind, solar, nuclear and bio-mass (tapping the methane from landfills), and electric engines and you can drive what ever you like, even if it is a 5ton truck you need to pick up the shopping. Same with air-con, power it cleanly and you can have a 50KW aircon system if you think you need it.

We're not saying you all need to switch to driving pedal cars, and we do realize that America is fucking huge and the cars needed there are different from central London. But just sticking your head in the sand and shouting "NO CHANGE, IT IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN TO DO WHAT EVER I WANT AND FUCK THE CONSEQUENCES" is pretty stupid. You don't live on planet America, you live on the same planet as everyone else and if you don't start taking care of it you will kill your kids. Global warming itself may not be exactly true, but the climate is changing rapidly and humans are forcing this to happen by converting to much of the ecosystem to support one species, us. It is estimated that the UK is going to be warm enough to grown vineyards on a massive scale, with a Mediterranean climate. And given that we're as far north as Canada, even with the gulf stream taken into account, how much of the USA will actually be able to support human life as we know it?

Its really odd to me, given that out of the winners and losers from climate change the USA will be among the losers, that Americans don't take this seriously. You may or may not believe that the climate is changing but I'm only 26 and I can see its changed with my own eyes. How fucking dumb do you have to be not to notice it?

[metatron]

I like and own a Dodge RAM with a 8.3-liter V-10, I've also owned a few 60/70's US cars. Modern US cars are fairly poor, there is no real reason for it that I can see. There are lots of very good engineers and designers, the only reason I can think of is the people at the top of GM/Ford/ and so on, are dinosaurs and have no idea what the markets wants/need and just keep pushing out the same car, again and again.

Car manufactures should be looking at the future trying to come up with what's next and in truth American engines could be made lighter and produce more power per liter if they tried. I don't think electric cars are a good idea as the manufacturing of them uses a lot of highly poisonous chemicals, which are very hard to dispose of when the car comes to the end of its life, plus there is the charging issue.

If I was in power I'd push hydrogen cars as well as tripling the number of reactors to produce hydrogen and oxygen. I think you should offer people small cars but still have big ones if they want.

If people really wanted to save the environment you would buy cars made in America, none of this electric shit which is made in 8 to 10 countries and shiped to another for assembly. Every single part should be made within the US (not really doable at the moment). As for the rest of the world, well I don't think the UK could support that type of thing so it would have to be a European wide idea.

[VaKo]

I've often wondered about some kinda induction loop built into the roads thus negating the need for cars to carry a substantial power source. 90% of people will only ever drive on roads as it is, and on long trips down motorways it could be useful.

As for cargo shipping, they're bringing back sails and using kites to provide power.

http://www.skysails.info/index.php

We just need to use the *limited* resources the planet has wisely because we can't get any more and they will run out.

Um seshan SMALL vans, some people need big vans but the now goverment run companies will not have that, so then what become China limit you to one kid otherwise it is aborted even though you find that thing (abortion) morally reprhensable? GOOD IDEA!! (extreme sarcasm!).

PS. Where is Opera's spell check

It would appear that you don't know anything about the one child policy and how it is actually implemented, but no worries because I just know your going to spout yet more unmitigated crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Current_Status

Without limits on population growth the human race will do what any species does after a period of unchecked growth, that is collapse due to the pressures of supporting too many people with too few resources.

[metatron]

I've often wondered about some kinda induction loop built into the roads thus negating the need for cars to carry a substantial power source. 90% of people will only ever drive on roads as it is, and on long trips down motorways it could be useful.

As for cargo shipping, they're bringing back sails and using kites to provide power.

http://www.skysails.info/index.php

We just need to use the *limited* resources the planet has wisely because we can't get any more and they will run out.

It would appear that you don't know anything about the one child policy and how it is actually implemented, but no worries because I just know your going to spout yet more unmitigated crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Current_Status

Without limits on population growth the human race will do what any species does after a period of unchecked growth, that is collapse due to the pressures of supporting too many people with too few resources.

Some kinda induction loop built into the roads, would cost way too much and would take decades. I think its one of those things which is possible but will never happen. I would like a bridge built from the UK to the US, but I think that is never going to happen.

[still learning]

I dont care as long as they are cheaper. I think if the car is smaller it should cost less to make, and cost less for me to buy brand new. More MPG is better as well. They should also have some real good airbags incase of an accident. Intergrating wind and solar enegery into the car would be nice, i seen a car in Italy which only used solar and wind power.

The only reason i can think of needing a big truck is if i need to pull a boat, jet skis, need to move to another apartment, ect.. would never drive something like that just to the store or to the library or movies, ect..

[VaKo]

Some kinda induction loop built into the roads, would cost way too much and would take decades. I think its one of those things which is possible but will never happen. I would like a bridge built from the UK to the US, but I think that is never going to happen.

I have to admit that its not feasible for most situations, but if you could design it into sections of motorways it could help with the range issues facing most electric cars. But hydrogen is probally a better way of storing energy than batteries, but the technology is still a fair way from being ready for mass usage yet, and whatever alternative is eventually used it is going to cost us to setup the infrastructure and move people over to the technology. Even in Europe where public attitudes are more favorable to renewables there is going to be a lot of resistance to the change, and the only way to force people to switch will be to double or triple fuel duty every few years while keeping the tax on electric/fuel cell vehicles at or close to zero.

In America this change will be much harder to impliment as the USA has been living way beyond its means for some time now, so even if nothing changes with the fuel that cars use the cost of fuel and food will rise dramatically without government intervention. If you add into that the problems caused by climate change, it doesn't paint a pretty picture in the long run.

[Zimmer]

But with an induction loop, it would take time to build and probably add to landfills also would be efficient enough?

[Sparda]

Some kinda induction loop built into the roads, would cost way too much and would take decades. I think its one of those things which is possible but will never happen. I would like a bridge built from the UK to the US, but I think that is never going to happen.

It would be as impossible as installing a telephone network. Would also make vehicles that relied upon it entierly far more efficient as they would not need to carry fuel or heavy engine (as such). As for vehicles that need to leave the loops occasionally, batteries can be charged from road.

[VaKo]

Its interesting, if in the 1940's you had asked how feasible it would be to setup a global communications network linked to hundreds of millions of wireless devices, and make it cheap enough that most of the human race could afford to access it, you would have been told that it wasn't at all feasible at all. However, today most people have cell phones that are capable of browsing the web, some of us for nearly a decade now. I don't see induction coil roads being built any time soon, but in 50-60 years from now I would be surprised if the idea wasn't in use in a few places. Transport would be much more efficient if the majority of personal transport didn't need to haul around heavy, bulky fuel supplies. This is especially true for large cities, where the lines between mass transport and personal transport could be blurred.

[Zimmer]

Also to reduce emissions (what the cap and trade goal is) it would cost a TON of money and right now are economy is not that strong it would send are economy into shock.