N1LL0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Activists Launch Hack Attacks on Tehran I thought it might be interesting to get this community's opinion on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethicalhack3r Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Activists Launch Hack Attacks on Tehran I thought it might be interesting to get this community's opinion on this issue. Damn I read the question wrong... my 'yes' vote should be a 'no' vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Yeah, after I posted I realized the title of the thread might cause some confusion where some might think the question is hacking for the Iranian government. Sorry. Everyone please read the poll question to prevent misunderstanding. That is all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalito Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I don't think is a good thing to hack a government website of any country. It's their election, and their country. Why do we have the right to interfere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 I don't think is a good thing to hack a government website of any country. It's their election, and their country. Why do we have the right to interfere. That is a good point, but what if the revolutionaries ask you to participate as they apparently have in this case? Then you are not imposing your views on an unwilling populace. But then again, the American Revolution was started by a small minority against the popular will of the majority of English colonists, so I suppose that joining any minority revolution would be an imposition upon an unwilling populace. hmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 That is a good point, but what if the revolutionaries ask you to participate as they apparently have in this case? Then you are not imposing your views on an unwilling populace. But then again, the American Revolution was started by a small minority against the popular will of the majority of English colonists, so I suppose that joining any minority revolution would be an imposition upon an unwilling populace. hmmm.... The way you are putting it and the examples you are using are more to do with the way people want to change the running of their own country, not anyone elses. If this was a movement in Iran, you could compare it to the American Revolution, but since it is not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 The way you are putting it and the examples you are using are more to do with the way people want to change the running of their own country, not anyone elses. If this was a movement in Iran, you could compare it to the American Revolution, but since it is not... From the article... In both Iran and abroad, the cyberstrikes are being praised as a way to hit back against a regime that so blatantly engaged in voter fraud. emphasis mine. I am not fully versed in the politics of Iran, and we have to be skeptical about any information we hear from any closed state. This makes it sound as though the young Iranian activists are glad for the assistance. Have they specifically made calls for assistance? I don't know. But then I am not trying to be evangelical about running to their aid. I am only playing the devil's advocate to try to understand other people's position on this and like issues. It was asserted that it is wrong to hack another country's websites as it is none of our business. This leads us into interesting territory. If you saw a man beating a child to a bloody pulp on his own property, would you help the child even if he/she couldn't ask for your help? Why or why not? It could be argued that it is not your property and it is none of your business. This would then be countered with the argument that this is you community and as such you have a vested interest in what occurs in your community or you can't sit idly by while a person's human rights are violated, etc. If either of those are valid, then it will lead to a semantic argument over what constitutes "community". Does community mean your neighborhood, city, country, or can it be expanded to include the entire world? It seems as though this is a movement in Iran. They are physically in the streets. The Iranian government is actively trying to hunt down tweeters. I can see the argument that the crack call is from outside sources since it is cited as being from pro-democracy movements. That still isn't very specific though. The pro-democracy movement could be from Iran or outside Iran. The people making the calls could be Iranian expat activists who fled after the fall of the Shah. Maybe the Iranians are contacting the extra-Iranian pro-democracy groups because it is difficult for groups in Iran to get their message out because of government control of media. There is obviously something going on in Iran being backed by Iranians, so I don't think the American Revolution analogy was that far afield. disclaimer: Once upon a time I was a debater in high school. So I just really like to argue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalito Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I think it's part of the whole underground hacker thing to want to team up and overthrow some nation or to hack their Gibsons and stuff but I don't think hackers uniting to fight a war that they have nothing to do with is cool. If Iranian hackers wanna do that's cool too. Even if they were to ask for help that's fine as well, but I don't know. If I were Iran and see hackers from other nations getting involved in my countries affairs I would be really angry. And I don't think we want to see Iran angry. Just my 2cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 If I were Iran and see hackers from other nations getting involved in my countries affairs I would be really angry. And I don't think we want to see Iran angry. I think this is a very valid, pragmatic argument. I think this also goes along with the argument that Western hackers helping the Iranian dissidents actually hurts the cause as it provides the regime with the argument, "This is not the will of the Iranian people but western elements sowing the seeds of insurrection." However, I don't think either of those arguments addresses the ethics of the situation even though I think they are very important arguments. Also, while I don't like the idea of an angry Iran (aren't they perennially angry with the US anyway). I don't think we should feel any obligation to make them happy either. There has been more information coming out about the different ways that people are lending assistance. Obviously, there is the dDOS that is linked above, but there are other more subtle ways that people have been helping. Some have set up proxy servers to help hide the activists' activities, while others are making the regime's job harder by setting their Twitter timezone to Iran thus dilluting an easy search field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr0p Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 No, we do not have the right. I absolutely hate how recently we've been trying to force democracy on other countries... that's just about the most undemocratic thing we could do. If the people there really want it for themselves then they will revolt, they will take action, they will stand up for themselves. And their 'hacking' with a DDoS attack, that's ridiculous. DDoS is not hacking and it annoys me so much when people says it is... sorry that was a little side tangent not really related to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle 2.0 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I think that if a government is intentionally trying to control access to what most of the world considers to be public information, then yes, it is morally acceptable to try and overcome those blocks. There is that age old example of how China filters out websites that contain information on the Tienanmen Square massacre. Nations have a right to keep national secrets and defense information confidential, but I draw the line when it comes to restricting access to information that the majority of the world considers to be public information. Hacking networks merely to cause damage and distress is just malicious though, and I don't see that as acceptable. Not to mention if people start hacking Iranian networks and meddling you just boost Ahmadenijad's power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 No, we do not have the right. I absolutely hate how recently we've been trying to force democracy on other countries... that's just about the most undemocratic thing we could do. If the people there really want it for themselves then they will revolt, they will take action, they will stand up for themselves. To continue on with the Iran example, the people (at least some) are revolting and taking action. They just need help because they don't have as much power as the state, revolutionaries rarely do. The American Revolution would never have succeeded without the help of the French, even if they were acting in their own self interest against a long-time rival. However, my question isn't about whether the US gov't has a right to blindly impose it's will on other nations. The question is whether it is ethical to come to the aid of foreign revolutionaries against an oppressive regime by performing "cyberattacks". Let's not get into the semantics of "hack" ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Hacking networks merely to cause damage and distress is just malicious though, and I don't see that as acceptable. Not to mention if people start hacking Iranian networks and meddling you just boost Ahmadenijad's power. You are absolutely right hacking networks to cause damage is malicious. So is shooting a bunch of protesters in a public square. Is it that you believe violent action is unacceptable under any circumstance, because this just sounds like white hat dogma under peaceful conditions? A revolution however wouldn't necessarily have the same proscriptions once you have chosen a side. The last argument is again another pragmatic argument that doesn't address the ethics of the question. Though it is valid. FWIW, I think you are all making good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle 2.0 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 You are absolutely right hacking networks to cause damage is malicious. So is shooting a bunch of protesters in a public square. Is it that you believe violent action is unacceptable under any circumstance, because this just sounds like white hat dogma under peaceful conditions? A revolution however wouldn't necessarily have the same proscriptions once you have chosen a side. The last argument is again another pragmatic argument that doesn't address the ethics of the question. Though it is valid. FWIW, I think you are all making good points. Ok, fair point. But to echo Die hard 4, its a real country with real people. Yes, you can have an oppressive regime that commits atrocities like Tienanmen square and forbids their citizens from looking up information on it, but I draw the line where a hackers actions cause harm to the people of the country as opposed to just the regime. Helping to bypass internet filters, that is fine. Causing problems for their communications systems (just an example) would not be. Its just causing problems for the everyday person. How is that acceptable? As per the Iranian election. We shouldn't be overtly seen as meddling. That is exactly what Ahmadenijad and his thugs want. We'd give them the power to pull out the anti-western card again, and rant about how we're meddling in their affairs. I believe we won't have good relations with Iran while he is in power. We have a President that is willing to make a genuine move for good relations with Iran. Why give Ahmadenijad more ammo for his propaganda machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1LL0 Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 but I draw the line where a hackers actions cause harm to the people of the country as opposed to just the regime. Helping to bypass internet filters, that is fine. Causing problems for their communications systems (just an example) would not be. Its just causing problems for the everyday person. How is that acceptable? I think keeping civilian casualties to a minimum, so to speak, is a fair limit. However as with any revolution you have to place to blame with the action. What I mean by this is that if the regime cracks down on the citizens of the country as a result of the actions of hackers the blame lies with the regime. It could be argued that the hackers caused problems for everyday people that would not have happened if they had not acted. This is sort of like a man who beats his wife saying "I wouldn't be forced to beat her if she would just learn to listen", which is obviously BS. Word from Iran is that they are asking people to not engage in dDOS attacks if they don't know what they are doing because it has caused some network problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal Hacker Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I definitely support those in the US, Europe, and elsewhere who set up encrypted proxy servers so that people in places like Iran and the PRC can bypass government censorship of the web! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalito Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I definitely support those in the US, Europe, and elsewhere who set up encrypted proxy servers so that people in places like Iran and the PRC can bypass government censorship of the web! This I don't mind, I actually think this is a good thing because with this you aren't forcing anyone to do anything. But when it comes to actually implementing some kind of organized attack, that where I would stop, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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