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If you have not voted yet, i did early. i promise it will take alot less time..Nov, 4 will be crazy, just like McCain, just a reminder to get your votes in and vote for the best

Barrack Obama = For the IT industry '08

fuck the oil industry, there many other resources for energy which will need good pc programmers / network techs and such to build, notice how the oil went down to like 2.50-3$ a gallon all of sudden ? republicans have been f*cking us middle class and poor for long enough , time to rise up and take action.. VOTE OBAMA.. enough with the rich flaunting and f*cking over normal people

ooops; sorry wrong section , can it plz be moved to "everything else"

eaither way hack the elections to favor Obama =) i dont trust these electronic voting machines

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So one day when you are a great IT guy and not a script kiddy then you are willing to give all your money to everyone who hasn't worked for it. Get your facts straight before you vote for some one. I don't know about you but I prefer to keep the money I work for and I enjoy reading the HAK5 forum because that would be no longer. And don't forget how the stock market crashed with Clinton in the oval office...Remember the .dot bust. Its the people to blame for our crummy economy and the buying to much shit with out having the money to pay. But my bad, lets blame the republicans because its what everyone else is doing because its to hard to blame ourselves for our one mistakes.

Vote for who you want but don't think its going to be all roses with Obama in office. Think it all through and go read about both canidates plans for there four years. Don't take what they say on TV as word or what others say on the internet as word.

IT pro's vote for who ever you want but I prefer to keep my money and not give it away to others that don't want to work for theirs.

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th3bigguy, I agree, read about both of the candidates in detail before you make a decision. Read into both parties, not just what MSNBC or FOX says... If you can't decide, then make a list of the pros and cons of both, and go with the better. That way, at least you voted. Then you have the right to complain if something goes wrong and you're upset by it. :)

Me? I'm voting for Obama, hardcore. And my house is throwing a party on Tuesday night for his victory. :)

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Me? I'm voting for Obama, hardcore. And my house is throwing a party on Tuesday night for his victory. :)

Ha, we're doing the same. And I'm in Ireland, not even America.

I've taken Wednesday off work to drink Tuesday night away in hope of an Obama victory. Obama will be announced president early Wednesday morning our time, so no point in going to work hung over.

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If you have not voted yet, i did early. i promise it will take alot less time..Nov, 4 will be crazy, just like McCain, just a reminder to get your votes in and vote for the best

Barrack Obama = For the IT industry '08

fuck the oil industry, there many other resources for energy which will need good pc programmers / network techs and such to build, notice how the oil went down to like 2.50-3$ a gallon all of sudden ? republicans have been f*cking us middle class and poor for long enough , time to rise up and take action.. VOTE OBAMA.. enough with the rich flaunting and f*cking over normal people

ooops; sorry wrong section , can it plz be moved to "everything else"

eaither way hack the elections to favor Obama =) i dont trust these electronic voting machines

So you have the talking points down well. Do you even realize how ignorant it looks? I'm completely for freedom of choice and given that freedom, Obama may cover your personal issues better than any other candidate. It would just look more intelligent having a well thought out reason or two.

First, gas is at $2.00 now (at least in the midwest). This bastardization of a talking point is thrown around, but is full of fallacies from beginning to end. Other than releasing oil from our reserve, the president (any president) can not influence oil or gas prices directly. If you must maintain this position, back it up with logical proof. Looking into a "supply and demand" curve might not hurt either and the industrialization of China and India isn't helping matters.

Second, no candidate will personally create jobs. Perhaps his policies may lead to jobs being created down the road, but they're is no magic wand that will create thousands of jobs in January for any candidate. The market and business will need to see an upturn in confidence and consumer spending for many consecutive quarters before restoring or creating new jobs. Some sectors won't be likely to come back as strong at all. Do you think Ford and GM will bring back jobs when they've lost massive market share and their dealerships have been closing at high rates?

Lastly, it's my personal opinion that a large hurdle for this country is that the majority of this country is uneducated regarding politics and many other topics that are at the heart of America and the world. People don't understand how lending actually works. People don't understand basic math when you relate it to taxes, spending or health care (which is a whole topic in itself). How do you fix the education problem? I really don't know. I only hope that smarter people than me figure it out.

I'm a libertarian, I don't like any of the presidential candidates..... and I approve this message.

P.S. - Both Biden's and McCain's history and current policies on the DMCA, privacy and telecommunications scare the shit out of me.

-mav

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For critics of Obamas tax plan, could you explain how reganomics has actually helped anyone but rich people to get richer? I honestly want to know, because I can't figure it out. All the growth seems to have been based on cheap credit you can't afford any longer. A tax cut for people earning less than $250K would seem to be a good option once you factor in cuts in capital gains taxes.

As a brit, I can honestly say that while an Obama presidency isn't going to be a golden utopia of unbridled joy, its your last chance as a country before the rest of the planet decides it doesn't want anything to do with you anymore. Candidate Mccain is a poor and divisive candidate at best who has sold out the values of Senator Mccain with his Roveian tactics and piss-poor VP choice.

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i can not freaking wait for this election to be over!!!

simply put, the next administration will probably not have the financial crisis fixed in the next 4 years. This is pretty sad for whoever gets elected, because people will want this problem to go away fast and it just wont, causing the next administration to be looked at badly. i can almost hear people saying it now... "if only we had elected..."

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I voted for Obama this morning, but whoever you support, make sure you get out there and vote!

If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about anything over the next 4 years!

I don't care if you are for McCain, Obama, or even Ralph Nader for that matter, just make sure you choose a canidate you beleive in and make sur eyour voice is heard.

If you don't like any of them, well then don't vote, that is an option too, but you can't make any difference sitting on the sidelines bitching about which side did what, when, where, and how. Change only happens when you make it.

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So to the people above voting McCain , are you seriously going for a president that needs help checking his own email?

com'n now.. todays the day, I will be celebrating Barracks win tonight also. Esp as IT people we need to get together and vote for the right person that will help our industry and IT fields which is Obama. Its all crap I dont know any plumber that makes over 250k a year, isnt the president salary 250k a year (not counting the extras, just what he is "suppose" to get paid")? 250k a year and over is RICH imo.. Most plumbers i've met in Florida are making 10 to 20$ an hour depending on experience, so the whole joe the plumber thing is BS, maybe the BIG BIZ that hires Joe the plumber is making over 250k but what if Joe whats to start his own business.. what if his company is chargeing him 500$ a month for health insurance for him and his family, this is real stuff.. a whole weeks pay just to get a cheap HMO health plan for himself and family, one weeks pay is suppose to cover 1 months rent for a home, people can not afford to live with prices going up and the same pay amount, I gaurentee if McCain gets elected Americans will revolt and riot

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I voted McCain because I want to keep as much of my paycheck as possable...

Obama Tax Plan

Current Obama

Income Tax Rate:......35%..............39%

Income/Paroll:...........37.4%...........52.2%

Capital Gains:...........15%..............28%

Dividends:.................15%..............39.6%

Estate Tax:.................0%..............55%

if this is his plan then i might as well not have an IT job...do you really wanna see over half your paycheck disappear into taxes to help support welfare and public housing? I worked in a grocery store for over 2 years while i paid my way through college and it was located in a part of town that was of a certain class of people. I saw way to many people come through using food stamps to buy expensive as meat/seafood (20 dollar stakes and 50+ dollar bags of crab meat mainly).

Someone made a comment about McCain not being able to check his email...If everyone was IT savy there would be not need for anyone to specialize in the IT field and we all would be out of jobs.

so⋅cial⋅ism

   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3. (in Marxist theory)
the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism
,
characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Simply put, Obama's tax plans would put us one step closer to communism.

EDIT: "notice how the oil went down to like 2.50-3$ a gallon all of sudden ?"

You do realize that the price oil is controlled by OPEC(supply and demand...basic economics)? and the price of OIL is not 2.5-3 a gallon its about 70 dollars a barrel...and thay dropped so low because of the stock market crashing(but the price will go back up in next few months because OPEC is cutting back on production to drive the price back up) which was due to stupid people borrowing more than what they could afford and causing banks to go bankrupt. But im sure you think its the republicans fault for all the stupid people borrowing more than what they could afford.

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THESE OUR MY THOUGHTS YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THEM. PLEASE DON"T FLAME ME FOR MY THOUGHTS.

I don't want the goverment deciding what is best for me. I know what is best for me not the goverment. I don't want a big brother thanks but I have had my parents for 18 years I don't need someone else stepping in for them.

I can't vote this election but I will definetly vote next one. I will vote to defend the lives lost each year to abortion. For I could have easily been one of those lives lost, I was born premature, if I was in my mother's womb I could have been killed but I wasn't so it would have been illegal, now does that make sense... that it is the place I'm in that decides my right to life to me it doesn't I'm glad my mom was pro-life, are you? Oh and Obama has said that he supports Abortion. Mcain doesn't so even if when I'm driving I'm paying four dollars a gallon at least those babies will either be taken care of by their biological mother or adopted to those who don't have the blessing of a child. Here is more food for thought how is it that in some places if a pregnant women is killed it is double homicide, you there for recognize the fetus is human and diserves human rights, yet abortion and partial birth abortion are legal. Also for those who still believe that a fetus isn't even living... Cells are defined as living 1 Yet cells are in the fetus, so the fetus is living.

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You don't know what communism is. Even the Russians and Chinese don't want anything to do with it any more. It failed because the state owned everything, you were just assigned stuff or jobs. I work with a guy who was Lieutenant Colonel in the USSR, and we discuss politics a lot. The idea that Obama is somehow a secret Communist has as much to do with reality as the idea that McCain spent his time in Vietnam as a burlesque dancer. Paying slightly more tax if you are rich (which earning over $250K makes you) is not socialism.

And lets look at Palins work in Alaska where she increased taxes on oil companies so that she could redistribute that income to the Alaskan people... Is that socialism? Or was it simply saying that companies who rake in millions/billions in profit should maybe pay more taxes than the guy that cleans there offices for minimum wage?

Plus you fail to mention that the tax increases that Obama would put in place would A: only apply to people who earn over $250K a year and B: would only apply to the money you earn above that $250K threshold. So if you are one of the 5% of Americans who is lucky enough to earn over that threshold, the higher rate of tax will only be applied to the money earned over $250K. Most people would see a reduction.

You have the face the idea that Reaganomics has not worked, and that larger companies and rich people should start paying more tax. Also, YOU HAVE 2 WARS ON. You need to start funding them now that the global supply of cheap credit (which is responsible for the growth we have seen in the last few years) is starting to falter.

As for oil prices, *every* American election the Saudi's break with OPEC and start boosting production, then OPEC follows there lead. And today OPEC announced an 11% cut in production, which will start to raise oil prices once more.

As for the issue of abortion, its not a new issue. Back in Victorian times people used to bathe in bathtubs of gin, or use coat hangers. Mostly the just died of poisoning, blood loss or infections. Those who survived were often sterile. By repealing Roe Vs Wade you would only push abortions out of clinics and back into side streets where far more people would die. Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on reducing the amount of people who have unwanted children through better education and more availability of contraception? Having an abortion does not mean you are a cheap skank who got knocked up for fun, it means there has been a failure somewhere down the line. I will admit that it isn't a good thing, but these issues are not black and white. You need to have balance when your dealing with these issues.

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Calm down there chief...

I can\'t vote this election but I will definetly vote next one. I think Obama is going to win becaouse people money over life.

Made no sense

[sic]I\'m glad my mom was pro-life, do you?

...are you

Oh and Obama has said that he supports Obama

I would also support myself

I understand peoples feelings towards abortion, but what if some 14 year old girl is raped by her dad and then has a brick smashed into her skull so she wont tell daddy\'s little secret. She lives the rest of her life retarded, but she is also carrying the fetus of her incestuous father... should she have to bare that?

Or some poor whore who already has 3 kids gets pregnant, she supports those kids by blowing guys behind dumpsters and goes home every night and cries her self to sleep because she wants a better life, for her and her children... but now she has another one one the way. Barely able to make ends meet as it is, in this horrid economy, what other options does she have. Yes she could give it up and hope it gets adopted, but during the pregnancy how will she support her children. Do you really want that?

Its an ancient custom to kill weak children and only allow the strongest to live, at least we are doing it before they take their first breath...

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So to the people above voting McCain , are you seriously going for a president that needs help checking his own email?

com'n now.. todays the day, I will be celebrating Barracks win tonight also. Esp as IT people we need to get together and vote for the right person that will help our industry and IT fields which is Obama. Its all crap I dont know any plumber that makes over 250k a year, isnt the president salary 250k a year (not counting the extras, just what he is "suppose" to get paid")? 250k a year and over is RICH imo.. Most plumbers i've met in Florida are making 10 to 20$ an hour depending on experience, so the whole joe the plumber thing is BS, maybe the BIG BIZ that hires Joe the plumber is making over 250k but what if Joe whats to start his own business.. what if his company is chargeing him 500$ a month for health insurance for him and his family, this is real stuff.. a whole weeks pay just to get a cheap HMO health plan for himself and family, one weeks pay is suppose to cover 1 months rent for a home, people can not afford to live with prices going up and the same pay amount, I gaurentee if McCain gets elected Americans will revolt and riot

First, the ability to check an email account is not on the top of my or the majority of American's list of priorities. It's a non issue.

Secondly, many small businesses that are sole proprietorships make 250,000 a year. This is commonplace and all of that revenue ends up in the owner or partners pockets. I'm from a rural Ohio area and the average salary is just under 40,000. Given the fact that the majority of households are now two wage earning ones, this gives a total income of 80,000. I concede that not all households are at this level, though this is the average for homes with two wage earners. Frankly the assertion that 250,000 is rich is ridiculous. Sure, it's a few times higher than average, but rich? Wouldn't that level be 500,000 or 1,000,000?

Third, health insurance costs more for a number of reasons, upon which is increased care, technology, drugs and research. Hell, insurance for the doctors themselves makes up a large chunk of what gets passed to the consumer. Offering anything above basic care on a socialized system will fail.

Lastly, I continue to be frustrated by people who state they can't pay the bills working their general labor/minimum wage/no skills jobs. Minimum wage was never meant to support a family. Do you really want $7.00 cheeseburgers from McDonalds? Were do you really think they're going to make up their increased labor cost? The level of inflation and cost of living would increase to remove any advantage of raising the pay for these jobs. If you really want to make a difference, improve your value by learning new and valuable skills, which raises you marketable pay rate.

-mav

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I voted McCain because I want to keep as much of my paycheck as possable...

Obama Tax Plan

Current Obama

Income Tax Rate:......35%..............39%

Income/Paroll:...........37.4%...........52.2%

Capital Gains:...........15%..............28%

Dividends:.................15%..............39.6%

Estate Tax:.................0%..............55%

if this is his plan then i might as well not have an IT job...do you really wanna see over half your paycheck disappear into taxes to help support welfare and public housing? I worked in a grocery store for over 2 years while i paid my way through college and it was located in a part of town that was of a certain class of people. I saw way to many people come through using food stamps to buy expensive as meat/seafood (20 dollar stakes and 50+ dollar bags of crab meat mainly).

Someone made a comment about McCain not being able to check his email...If everyone was IT savy there would be not need for anyone to specialize in the IT field and we all would be out of jobs.

so⋅cial⋅ism

   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3. (in Marxist theory)
the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism
,
characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Simply put, Obama's tax plans would put us one step closer to communism.

EDIT: "notice how the oil went down to like 2.50-3$ a gallon all of sudden ?"

You do realize that the price oil is controlled by OPEC(supply and demand...basic economics)? and the price of OIL is not 2.5-3 a gallon its about 70 dollars a barrel...and thay dropped so low because of the stock market crashing(but the price will go back up in next few months because OPEC is cutting back on production to drive the price back up) which was due to stupid people borrowing more than what they could afford and causing banks to go bankrupt. But im sure you think its the republicans fault for all the stupid people borrowing more than what they could afford.

As a libertarian, I want less taxes, and a smaller government that stays out of my way.

While I agree with your premise, the assertion that Obama is equal to socialism is simple not true. He is obviously not in agreement with libertarian view though, and as such someone I couldn't vote for.

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Your government failed to invest in the education required to produce people who can demand above minimum wage and encouraged outsourcing of jobs which paid more to countries where they could pay far less than the minimum wage. So you have people trying to support a family on minimum wages because there isn't the work for them to do which pays more. Same thing happened in the UK and we have similar problems. Trying to fix this by giving companies general tax breaks will not encourage the growth needed to provide jobs which pay a decent living wage. It will simply encourage them to do the same as they have been doing. People are not poor just because they are lazy (I remember working 50+ hrs a week on minimum wage), they are poor because supply side economics doesn't work. You need to invest in education and invest in providing the infrastructure company's need to create jobs.

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You don't know what communism is. Even the Russians and Chinese don't want anything to do with it any more. It failed because the state owned everything, you were just assigned stuff or jobs. I work with a guy who was Lieutenant Colonel in the USSR, and we discuss politics a lot. The idea that Obama is somehow a secret Communist has as much to do with reality as the idea that McCain spent his time in Vietnam as a burlesque dancer. Paying slightly more tax if you are rich (which earning over $250K makes you) is not socialism.

And lets look at Palins work in Alaska where she increased taxes on oil companies so that she could redistribute that income to the Alaskan people... Is that socialism? Or was it simply saying that companies who rake in millions/billions in profit should maybe pay more taxes than the guy that cleans there offices for minimum wage?

Plus you fail to mention that the tax increases that Obama would put in place would A: only apply to people who earn over $250K a year and B: would only apply to the money you earn above that $250K threshold. So if you are one of the 5% of Americans who is lucky enough to earn over that threshold, the higher rate of tax will only be applied to the money earned over $250K. Most people would see a reduction.

You have the face the idea that Reaganomics has not worked, and that larger companies and rich people should start paying more tax. Also, YOU HAVE 2 WARS ON. You need to start funding them now that the global supply of cheap credit (which is responsible for the growth we have seen in the last few years) is starting to falter.

As for oil prices, *every* American election the Saudi's break with OPEC and start boosting production, then OPEC follows there lead. And today OPEC announced an 11% cut in production, which will start to raise oil prices once more.

As for the issue of abortion, its not a new issue. Back in Victorian times people used to bathe in bathtubs of gin, or use coat hangers. Mostly the just died of poisoning, blood loss or infections. Those who survived were often sterile. By repealing Roe Vs Wade you would only push abortions out of clinics and back into side streets where far more people would die. Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on reducing the amount of people who have unwanted children through better education and more availability of contraception? Having an abortion does not mean you are a cheap skank who got knocked up for fun, it means there has been a failure somewhere down the line. I will admit that it isn't a good thing, but these issues are not black and white. You need to have balance when your dealing with these issues.

According to Perot Charts, in 2005 the top 5% of America paid for 58% of the income tax revenue. I don't think I'm being radical to say that they're paying their "fair" share. It's no wonder people set up tax shelters.

As for Palin, let's see the numbers. I'd be interested to break down the real data.

On Obama and taxes - First, only the income portion of his tax plan would be limited. The capital gains and estate taxes apply to everyone. This fact that he wants to take a very large portion of my parent's money when they die doesn't sit well with me.

As for Reagan - You can argue against it, but who do you really think will pay more taxes when you increase the cost of running a business? Do you think the business owner eats all of the cost? Don't you think at least part of this will be seen in the form of returned cost via price increases? This argument applied to "large evil corporations" as well. When you make the cost of business go up for P&G, what do you think happens to the price of Tide, toothpaste, toilet paper, etc?

-mav

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Your government failed to invest in the education required to produce people who can demand above minimum wage and encouraged outsourcing of jobs which paid more to countries where they could pay far less than the minimum wage. So you have people trying to support a family on minimum wages because there isn't the work for them to do which pays more. Same thing happened in the UK and we have similar problems. Trying to fix this by giving companies general tax breaks will not encourage the growth needed to provide jobs which pay a decent living wage. It will simply encourage them to do the same as they have been doing. People are not poor just because they are lazy (I remember working 50+ hrs a week on minimum wage), they are poor because supply side economics doesn't work. You need to invest in education and invest in providing the infrastructure company's need to create jobs.

What? Public school is free and college is free for a large segment of the population. Plus there is also loans. We have some of the best educational institutions in the world.

It is not the responsibility of the government to force people to go to college. People have the individual responsibility to go to college and improve their lives.

I work and go to school, both full time. I will not believe that others can't do it as well.

-mav

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QUOTE

I can\'t vote this election but I will definetly vote next one. I think Obama is going to win becaouse people money over life.

Made no sense

QUOTE

This was pointed to those voting for Obama to lower taxes and other things to get money, when they ignore the lives of the innocent.

Its an ancient custom to kill weak children and only allow the strongest to live, at least we are doing it before they take their first breath...

Does that make it any more right to commit murder? No.

I didn't live then, I do now.

I understand peoples feelings towards abortion, but what if some 14 year old girl is raped by her dad and then has a brick smashed into her skull so she wont tell daddy\'s little secret. She lives the rest of her life retarded, but she is also carrying the fetus of her incestuous father... should she have to bare that?

So the baby didn't do anything and is defenseless so he/she dies. Should the baby have to die. No. It's said that this happens but the baby has a right to life as well and for raising the baby, adoption their are many many couples that can't have a baby for what ever reason. The baby gets a good life and yes it doesn't help the poor girl but the baby shouldn't get punished for it.

Or some poor whore who already has 3 kids gets pregnant, she supports those kids by blowing guys behind dumpsters and goes home every night and cries her self to sleep because she wants a better life, for her and her children... but now she has another one one the way. Barely able to make ends meet as it is, in this horrid economy, what other options does she have. Yes she could give it up and hope it gets adopted, but during the pregnancy how will she support her children. Do you really want that?

Another reason not to have sex. Babies usaully happen.

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Babies don't have to happen thanks to this thing called science. Contraception for instance. As for not having sex, try saying that when you have had sex... its not something thats easy to give up. We could just tow the line with nature, but then we should probally throw out everything else that goes against nature. Starting with computers, cars, surgery, planes, clean water etc

Also, with the concept of original sin in mind, are babies/fetuses really innocent?

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According to Perot Charts, in 2005 the top 5% of America paid for 58% of the income tax revenue. I don't think I'm being radical to say that they're paying their "fair" share. It's no wonder people set up tax shelters.

As for Palin, let's see the numbers. I'd be interested to break down the real data.

On Obama and taxes - First, only the income portion of his tax plan would be limited. The capital gains and estate taxes apply to everyone. This fact that he wants to take a very large portion of my parent's money when they die doesn't sit well with me.

As for Reagan - You can argue against it, but who do you really think will pay more taxes when you increase the cost of running a business? Do you think the business owner eats all of the cost? Don't you think at least part of this will be seen in the form of returned cost via price increases? This argument applied to "large evil corporations" as well. When you make the cost of business go up for P&G, what do you think happens to the price of Tide, toothpaste, toilet paper, etc?

-mav

http://mccainfactcheck.com/facts/11/palin_...ax_344511.shtml

Palin enacted a windfall tax on oil profits that was handed out as a Alaska Resource Rebate giving anyone eligible an additional $1200 to the $2069 they already get. I don't disagree with windfall taxes per sa but it does seem odd to do this then shout about socialism.

On capital gains:

Raise capital gains tax for fairness, not for revenue

Q: You favor an increase in the capital gains tax, saying, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28%." It's now 15%. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28%. Bill Clinton dropped the capital gains tax to 20%, then George Bush has taken it down to 15%. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down.

A: What I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. The top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year--$29 billion for 50 individuals. Those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.

Q: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.

A: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

As for Reaganomics, the problem I see with that is people using monetary value above all other forms of value. It runs deeper than the issues Obama has raised but in all honesty unchecked capitalism isn't working. We need to invest resources in people. I'm not claiming we should provide everything for everyone with no effort required. What I am saying is we should ensure that the bare minimum quality of life is raised, if you want more, work for it. This also means ending access to cheap credit and enforcing the ethic that if you want a new car you put in the work and earn it. Yes, a company will just pass on the costs to there customers, the distribution of wealth in society hasn't changed much since the Romans ruled the old world, but we should at least work on raising the bottom line. If anything this will work to reduce street crime.

As for education, 20 years back you were number 1.

http://oberon.sourceoecd.org/vl=2517734/cl...book/090101.htm

Your now performing under the OECD average on scientific and mathematical literacy today. Given that a lot of blue collar work was outsourced this doesn't fill me with confidence. No, not everyone should go to collage otherwise you end up with a situation like we have in the UK where degree's are near worthless because of the amount of people who have them. What you need to do is make sure that everyone has a decent education to high school level.

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VaKo

Also, with the concept of original sin in mind, are babies/fetuses really innocent?

You assuming I'm Catholic? You don't have to be Catholic to be aggainst Abortion. Yes they are a main group opposed to it though.

We could just tow the line with nature, but then we should probally throw out everything else that goes against nature. Starting with computers, cars, surgery, planes, clean water etc

I never did say anything against Technology or Civilization. Did I?

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Zimmer you sir take things way to out of context and when people have a rebuttal you get all butt hurt about it, your wrong just get over it. Abortion is good for every one and how did you get murder from my abortion talk, oh your going to compare the two? Thats just not how it works. I was saying that we are at least a little more humane about it.. Now just imagine if you have a daughter and she was rapped and beaten to death by some hobo slob...would you really want to be responsible for that rape baby zimmer...honestly?

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